Ayam Cemani Fraud?

[Michael OShay]

You will find the standard for the Ayam Cemani at http://www.cemanifarms.com/2013/09/standard-of-ayam-cemani.html. Note that both the combs and the eyes must be black. I would definitely demand the bulk of my money back for your orange eyed bird.

 

[catface]

I can understand that! It's hard to put money into them and not get much back but I don't breed to make money. It's nice if I do, but I don't expect it. For me it's just a very expensive hobby.

 

[Inkedxoxo]

There’s a breeder somewhat near me and her rooster and hens are pretty solid she’s selling them for $50. Those that have a grey tongue or grey patches on bottom or feet she sells for $20. Last 2 photos are of mine.

 

[BearBottomBasinFarm]

So, I purchased 2 Ayam Cemani pairs from 2 different breeders.

3 of my Ayam's have black eyes & combs now that they are developed (5 months-ish).

The fourth, a rooster - has developed an off red comb(while as the other 3 have black combs) and he has orange eyes (all of the others have black eyes).

I believe that I was sold a different Ayam breed (one that has similar appearance) but isn't actually a Cemani. These have red combs/ETC. but aren't Cemani.

Any suggestions/feedback here?
>Can an Ayam Cemani even have a red comb/orange eyes?
>>If not: I feel as if I paid WAY to much from this breeder and should ask for the bulk of my money back.

Thanks,
CM

I got took on ebay myself. Got secure in the fact the guy is an NPIP inspector in Olney ILL but he does not sell quality birds. He may have them but that's not what u get. People, please buy from reputable breeders with positive feedback after u see the chicks. This breed needs to be guarded.

 

[massoumicyrus]

Yea, I can, but, to establish a premise:

An Ayam Cemani can't even have orange eyes. No?

If anything --- they may be able to have not entirely black combs --- but, they can't have orange eyes. That would mean that I was sold another breed of Ayam's. I've seen pictures of said breed - forget the name - but they are not the Ayam Cemani breed -- They are another Ayam breed which retails for significantly less.

Further opinion requested. Will post pictures soon ---- if the vendor doesn't agree to a refund/replacement then will also reveal the name of the vendor.

Best,
CM

 

[massoumicyrus]

The vendor is refusing to even entertain the idea of refund -- and claims the only Ayam's they have are ones which need to be culled.

 

[massoumicyrus]

Unfortunately, since we live in a country where even if you write something truthful you can still be taken to court for libel & defamation, I'm going to opt not to post the name of the vendor.

That said: I had a long talk with Ricky White, who is one of the people who is friends with Astin Marie, and got her Ayam Cemani's originally before Greenfire Farms created the media buzz that led to AC's being $2,000 for a juvenile pair.

I've tried to conduct a somewhat extensive research around AC's and have found the following:
I know of Astin Marie who was an original AC breeder years before -- who has 2 reputable friends who got her AC's and also breed/sell them. The difference between A.M. and her 2 friends is that they are willing to sell 6 month old AC's that are ready to breed for the same price as Greenfire will sell you a pair of 3 month olds. Also, Rick White is a really nice guy based off of our conversation and has extensive knowledge of the breed.
Greenfire - which seems to be a year or less in to importing and breeding AC's.
And, I've heard some rumors that a previous curator of The Smithsonian was able to import his own AC's due to relations he had with people in Indonesia.

Here's where I become suspicious of AC's, their future, and what I've heard from breeders which makes me reluctant about the breed.
___________________

So, let's say that you buy 2 AC's at 6 months old at present day. You pay $2,000-$2,500.
>Now you have a hen who will lay between 200-350 eggs per year. Take the mid-point as 275.
>>Now let's say that you incubate every single egg and have an 80% hatch rate. Now, disregarding the fact that there should be a compound variable since the chickens that hatch after day 21 are going to within 6 months also be laying ---- you now have 220 AC chickens.
>>>The going rate on the market is $800 for a 3 month old AC, and $1,000-$1,500 depending if you can get an AC which is both older or of better AC attributes.
>>>>Now let's say that you sell for under market rate and simply sell your AC's for $500, just so that you can sell them for a great deal at less than the market rate.
>>>>>So, now you've made let's say $40,000 +/- (with this figure not being disputed since you have an added variable of your chicks that you hatched on day 21 hatching their own chicks after 6 months + 21 days, with a variable that you have to account to cut(cull) for the ones that don't have good features, or the 5% that aren't born with the black trait(+ deaths, but with adequate pen space, a minimal concern).

So, now I'm supposed to believe that for every $2,000 I spend today - 365 days from now that can be $40,000.

Furthermore, vendors theorize that the AC market is going to have a price schedule as follows:
This year - $1,000 per AC
Next year - $750 per AC
Year After - $500 per AC
Year After - $250 per AC
Year After - (Speculatory)

What I do know based off of some research about AC's domestic to Asia, Indonesia, and more notably their island of origin Java, where they were first discovered as jungle chicken - is that at market:
Grade A (Perfect black features) -- Sell in Indonesia for $150 --- Their own domestic country
Grade B - Sells for around $75
Grade C - is culled/food and thus null.

Some people in BYC have come out and said that raising AC's isn't going to be profitable, since you're going to have to cull excessively. Simultaneously, the multitude of AC eggs sold on Ebay purchased by many people with a lack of knowledge are actually AC roosters - bred with other dark breeds, and their eggs sold for $100. (Their eggs, $100). Let's just say that eggs even sell for $50, now, instead of a farm chicken that you can't sell for more than $20 even at a farmers market - cooked, is magically $100 - as an egg.

So, what's missing?

Something about the Ayam Cemani story is missing, and I don't know what that is. I do believe that the reason for the current price is a reflection of the fact that media hype has elevated the price. But, let's ignore that.

Let's say that the following is true (just for the sake of argument):
You buy 3 roosters and 7 hens on Day 1.
Over 1 year you hatch in excess of 1,400 AC's with --- Let's just say 700 that you choose to sell ---
at let's say a price point of $500 each. That's $350,000.00 USD
at a price of even $100, the current price of an egg on ebay --- you've still turned $10,000 into $75,000.
This, juxtaposed to the fact that the average American family makes $35,000 per year.

Are they the Goose that lays the Golden Egg?

I am very much interested to hear people's opinions.

Thanks,
Cyrus

 

[refamat]

So, I purchased 2 Ayam Cemani pairs from 2 different breeders.

3 of my Ayam's have black eyes & combs now that they are developed (5 months-ish).

The fourth, a rooster - has developed an off red comb(while as the other 3 have black combs) and he has orange eyes (all of the others have black eyes).

I believe that I was sold a different Ayam breed (one that has similar appearance) but isn't actually a Cemani. These have red combs/ETC. but aren't Cemani.

Any suggestions/feedback here?
>Can an Ayam Cemani even have a red comb/orange eyes?
>>If not: I feel as if I paid WAY to much from this breeder and should ask for the bulk of my money back.

Thanks,
CM

What I learned is that this is a mutation so almost anything is certainly possible. To get a "breed" it has to breed true all the time. Mutations on the other hand can and do carry previous genes which can pop up every so often depending on how they are expressed. So, you cull, for standard traits, keep the ones who throw the most all black chicks, eat the others (restaurants may find this a interesting dish and pay better than normal prices) so that the undesired expressed genes are diminished over time.

 

[drumstick diva]

Wish Pyxis would comment

 

[Inkedxoxo]

I know this post is old but I thought I would put this out there for people who may still be looking for Posts like this.... I have an Pure Breed AC and it was born with white flecks in its wing (Which I love) And white on its chest that is now darkening. I also spoke with a man who owns one and it is pure as well but his has the genetic defect of red in the comb. As far as the eyes I have not spoken with anyone who has ran into that. However I have been talking to a local breeder I have made arrangement with to get a dozen incubating eggs from this spring told me that the ones who are completely black can produce AC with the genetic defects and I read ones with the genetic defects can produce all black its a genetic crap shoot. That I guess is why I don't understand why breeders Cull the one with the defects because the ones with the defects can still give them pure breed all black and the all black can still produce the genetic issues. Make sure to find out 100% sure the AC do not carry these genetic defects.... I know I was livid about mine until researching and speaking with breeders. However even if she has these defects or was pure or not to me she was worth all the pain because she is so petite and lively she gets to stay with me a little longer......

I was told the same thing and completely agree. I’ve seen our breeders juveniles and adults. Some of their offspring have “defects” and the others don’t.