Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[tadkerson]

Tim, Just how would you go about breeding out the wheaten Marans that has been put in most BC. As long as folks keep mixing up the varieties of Marans and adding fowl outside of the breed this problem will be there. There is no way the Mendel theory can tell anyone what is mixed up with the Marans, Sorry.

Sure you can. If a person thinks a bird carries wheaten, they will need to do a test cross with the bird. Cross the bird in question with a columbian restricted wheaten and see what segregates in the offspring. Hatch 20 or so. If all the chicks have black copper down then the bird does not carry wheaten. If some light downed chicks with stripes or markings on the back show up the bird in question carries wheaten. Now you know if the bird is purebred for the birchen allele.

Another thing to look for is brown in the forehead of the downy chick, this can indicate the chicks carry wheaten. Also look for toes that are not pigmented- this is very common in females and less common in males. They do not always have the white toes. Another thing to look for BCM that carry wheaten, the chicks may have lighter lateral back stripes in the down.
Tim

 

[tadkerson]

Is this an answer to my question about why the legs of a fcbm would be white/silver/light grey? If the barring gene does this then does that mean that every bcm who shows light shanks like this is carrying the wheaton gene? I may sound simple, forgive me, but this is what you all seem to be saying. I did very well when we were talking about boots and socks
White skin could mean that they would be great table birds though since the market prefers yellow or white skin. If the pink is hormonal then what is the green about?
What is swarthy? Swarthy=mottled?? Not solidly colored?
"The black coppers carry the birchen allele and should not have black shanks and feet." They should not? I understood Marans should have dark shanks and feet.

Birds that are purebred for wheaten will have lighter shanks than a bird that is not purebred for wheaten but looks wheaten.

The black copper maran carries a gene called birchen. The leg color on birds that carry birchen is highly variable. Some are dark and others are very light. I have seen great variation in my birchen birds. If a bird carries another leg color gene then they can have black shanks and feet. If the bottom and middle of the birchen birds foot is blue they carry the gene, if pnikish white/white then they do not carry the gene.

Green shanks are caused a bird having yellow skin with black pigment in the tissue under the yellow skin. The two mix together to make green looking shanks.

Swarthy is a mixture of some black in yellow shanks- not a nice bright yellow.

There is a difference in dark and black. Black shanks are associated with birds that carry the extended black allele. BCM should not have black shanks or carry the extended black allele.

Tim

 

[snowbird]

Tim, there is no since in me and you discussing Marans as I have hatched and grew out several thousand and know first hand what happens with the wheaten and BC.

 

[geebs]

Great information Tim!!! Thanks!!

 

[Keara]

Sure you can. If a person thinks a bird carries wheaten, they will need to do a test cross with the bird. Cross the bird in question with a columbian restricted wheaten and see what segregates in the offspring. Hatch 20 or so. If all the chicks have black copper down then the bird does not carry wheaten. If some light downed chicks with stripes or markings on the back show up the bird in question carries wheaten. Now you know if the bird is purebred for the birchen allele.

Another thing to look for is brown in the forehead of the downy chick, this can indicate the chicks carry wheaten. Also look for toes that are not pigmented- this is very common in females and less common in males. They do not always have the white toes. Another thing to look for BCM that carry wheaten, the chicks may have lighter lateral back stripes in the down.
Tim

Tim,

Thanks for this post it will help when culling chicks. I have a question about the white toes.... are you talking about white toes on chicks, or adult birds? I see lots of chicks posted photos, and my own, that have dark legs and white toes, but grow to adults with completely slate or dark slate feet; toes too (but not toenails).

-Keara

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Tim, I'm curious, do you promote line-breeding or are you looking for more genetic diversity than that?

 

[tadkerson]

Tim,

Thanks for this post it will help when culling chicks. I have a question about the white toes.... are you talking about white toes on chicks, or adult birds? I see lots of chicks posted photos, and my own, that have dark legs and white toes, but grow to adults with completely slate or dark slate feet; toes too (but not toenails).

-Keara

Keara,

Yes, I agree with you on the adults having white toes as chicks and later developing dark shanks. The white toes are on the chicks. I have seen the same thing in some of my birds. I listed a few different things- if you see these things in combination the chances are the chick may carry wheaten. The best of the things I listed are the lighter lateral back stripes to identify the chicks as carrying wheaten.

Tim

 

[Wynette]

Tim, I am loving the information you are posting! I don't understand it all, but some parts are beginning to creep into my gray matter. As I am new with genetics, my hope is that all this stuff is going to be a huge light bulb moment for me at some point.

Thanks so much for the posts!

 

[tadkerson]

Tim, I'm curious, do you promote line-breeding or are you looking for more genetic diversity than that?

If a person has a superior bird, line breed using the bird; that is if you want to produce SQ birds. I am more interested in crossing birds to see how the genes and gene combinations work in birds. Genetics in chickens is not cut and dry because the genes can be different in birds that have the same phenotype ( what the bird looks like). Take for example the birchen allele found in BCM. One bird can have a birchen allele that is a little different than the birchen allele in another bird. The two different alleles may be expressed differently when in combination with the same genes found in both birds.

The more you learn about chicken genetics the more complicated things get, especially with the new techniques that are used to sequence the DNA found in the genes. A good example is the wheaten allele (genes). When talking about wheaten, there are two wheaten basic plumage color patterns; dark wheaten (recessive wheaten) and light wheaten (dominant wheaten). The alleles for these two wheatens have been sequenced and it has been determined that both wheatens sequence exactly the same. This means that the alleles are exactly the same. The dark wheaten birds have the same allele as a light wheaten. If the alleles are the same one would think they would act exactly alike but they do not.

Research by Kimball indicated that the dark wheaten phenotypes have an additional gene he called dark that is causing the dark color in the adult birds. But the dark gene would not explain what other researchers have discovered about the dark wheaten. Dark wheaten acted as a recessive when crossed with birds of a non-wheaten phenotype. Lets say a person had a dark wheaten marans and crossed it with a golden salmon marans; the down of the offspring would look like the golden salmon because the dark wheaten is recessive. If a person crossed a light wheaten marans with a golden salmon marans; the chicks would have light wheaten down- that makes the light wheaten dominant. There are other things that are not genes that can effect the down color and adult plumage color in chickens that are made of DNA. These other things can also effect the down color and adult plumage color.

Lots of new information all the time. Scientists are interested in how chicken genes work. This will help them understand how the same gene works in other organisms. The gene for vitiligo is the same in humans as in chickens. They can study the chicken gene to help understand the human gene. It is stuff like that that interests scientists.


Tim

 

[tadkerson]

Tim, there is no since in me and you discussing Marans as I have hatched and grew out several thousand and know first hand what happens with the wheaten and BC.

So, how do your observations square with the information I have posted. I am interested in your input.

Tim