Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[Debbi]

Tim,

What would happen if I bred that wanna-be Wheaten roo I posted a page back, to an actual wheaten pullet? I assume it may work in reverse as the BCMs that produce Wheaten sports? That some would be a mix, some would be BCM looking, and some would look like Wheatens? I went back yesterday and looked at his baby pics. That roo was very dark, not white on the face, and only a white belly. He also had slate colored legs. Then looking at his pic at I think, 4 weeks, I noticed he showed cinnamon coloring in the wing where the primaries were coming in! I had never noticed it before, because I wasn't looking for it. Then when he turns 2 years old, the cinnamon shows up again? It is something I am just going to do, my curiousity won't let it go, and chicken mistakes can always be eaten. So, I guess my question is, can the BCM be totally bred out at some point with this type of a cross, or is that ER always going to be in there to rear it's head somewhere else down the road? My thinking here is to breed the best looking Wheaten cockeral from that clutch back to his Wheaten mother, and to any of his Wheaten sisters. I would think the sibling breeding would show me in short order how that was going to turn out? Am I totally confused and heading down the wrong path, or is this a possible way to see what will happen? As you can tell, I am no genetics whiz, but dabbling and experimenting is always fun!

 

[maryhysong]

I have a question for all of you. What are you feeding your chicks, especially %protein? I ask because I'm thinking that since Marans are supposed to be dual purpose birds, that feeding a little higher protein would help beef them up, given of course that the genes are there for the bigger body. Locally the chick starter is 18%, I think the grower is a little less. Do you think this is enough or maybe it should be higher?

 

[DMRippy]

I have a question for all of you. What are you feeding your chicks, especially %protein? I ask because I'm thinking that since Marans are supposed to be dual purpose birds, that feeding a little higher protein would help beef them up, given of course that the genes are there for the bigger body. Locally the chick starter is 18%, I think the grower is a little less. Do you think this is enough or maybe it should be higher?

My chicks starter is 18% pork based (I think meat is important most feed is soy) my grower is 19% and I add some barley so that ups it some. I use 22% layer feed. All the same brand.

 

[Debbi]

Mary ~ I don't use the medicated starter any more, I start them all out on a chick grower crumble, and the protein is only 21%. I will hard boil some eggs for them and mix it into their feed to up the protein, but I only do that a few times a week. When they get older I add some dry cat food to their feed to bump the protein, and the adult flock gets it too. I've never had a problem with slow growing or small chicks, so I guess they are doing ok. Some people use a GAME BIRD GROWER feed, but out here in the sticks, the feed store seems to have a hard time getting it. The few times they did get it for me, I was not impressed. It cost about $4.00 more per 50#, and the protein was only 23%, so I quit that nonsense! I am going to try to grow DUCK WEED for all of them this summer, as it is supposed to have anywhere from 26-31% protein content in it, and when dried and fed in with the feed, that would sure be a cheap way to bump the protein. There is also Soy meal, but I am not a big fan of soy these days. I'm sure others will chime in, that's just what I do, others will have a more elaborate diet for their birds, but I have to stay within my means!

 

[DMRippy]

Mary ~ I don't use the medicated starter any more, I start them all out on a chick grower crumble, and the protein is only 21%. I will hard boil some eggs for them and mix it into their feed to up the protein, but I only do that a few times a week. When they get older I add some dry cat food to their feed to bump the protein, and the adult flock gets it too. I've never had a problem with slow growing or small chicks, so I guess they are doing ok. Some people use a GAME BIRD GROWER feed, but out here in the sticks, the feed store seems to have a hard time getting it. The few times they did get it for me, I was not impressed. It cost about $4.00 more per 50#, and the protein was only 23%, so I quit that nonsense! I am going to try to grow DUCK WEED for all of them this summer, as it is supposed to have anywhere from 26-31% protein content in it, and when dried and fed in with the feed, that would sure be a cheap way to bump the protein. There is also Soy meal, but I am not a big fan of soy these days. I'm sure others will chime in, that's just what I do, others will have a more elaborate diet for their birds, but I have to stay within my means!

I thought about duckweed too..... how are you going to grow it?

I am really wanting to grow some fodder since my birds don't get to free range, I would love for them to have the greens and all the other good stuff fodder has in it. Duckweed is not practical to me, I don't think. I have 300 birds. Fodder might be the more logical for me. May not be able to feed them as much fodder as I would like but some is more than the nothing they are getting now.

 

[Debbi]

Donna ~ I was going to try to grow it in a kiddie pool and see what happens. Another thought I had was my neighbor's pond. He is plagued with algae in the summer, and duck weed is supposed to kill off the algae, plus the fish would benefit from it too. That would be ideal as his pond is right over the fence from me! Of course I would have to talk to him about it and see what he thinks. I could just go in with a net to harvest it, let it dry a few days in a pool or barrel being stirred or rolled, and I should be good to go. Sounds lovely on paper, I will find out just how practical it is, or isn't once I get into it. One gal said her chooks wouldn't touch it, but she was feeding it to them green. All of my birds get to free range, so they get lots of goodies in the spring, summer, and fall. The other thing I want to raise is mealworms! They will just about knock me over trying to get at them if I am not fast enough doling them out!

 

[maryhysong]

Thanks ladies! I'm in the process of converting over to organic feed; found a co-op group that does a big order every two months. The feed is 'Big Sky' brand; the layer mash is 16% and the starter/grower is 17% but they have a 'broiler chick' starter that is 22%. I ordered the regular starter plus some of the broiler chick, planning to mix them to up the protein a bit, but might think about just using the higher % next time. The layer and regular chick starter have no corn or soy; those have fish meal for the protein. The broiler chick isn't specified on the price list I have, just certified organic. I'm with you Donna, I think that animal protein is better than the soy.

I also raise earthworms which are 18% protein, dry weight, but don't have enough right now for all my birds. I think when I order in Jan I'll get the higher % feeds since I'll also have ducks hatching in the spring and I know they will need it.

I grow chard in my garden for greens. It'll grow winter and summer, all the birds love it. You can grow it under row covers or in cold frames if you have cold winters. I also sprout wild bird seed (no organics locally so this was my compromise, conventionally raised, but no corn or soy in the brand I buy; since I can get organic scratch now I"ve ordered some of that) When I only had a dozen birds I would soak the seeds overnight in a gallon jug, then pour off into cut down milk jugs with holes in the bottom to rinse and drain; I'd let them grow 2-3 days in the summer; need a little longer in the winter. Now I"m just using a 5 gal bucket with a lot of tiny holes drilled in the bottom. I put the seed in it and set it inside another bucket and pour water in to cover the seed. The next day I pull up the seed bucket and set it kind of sideways on top of the bottom bucket so it can drain. Once a day I put it back down in the water for a while, then pull up to drain again. If the soak/rinse water is getting funky I dump and rinse out the bottom bucket and put in fresh water. With this I have been starting to feed as soon as the roots appear and when I feed the last there is a pretty good size sprout. I am going to experiment with small containers and setting them in my green house to green up and grow long.

But boy, 300 birds that is a lot. I have bought some alfalfa cubes that I toss into the fermented feed for 'greens' when I'm busy or don't have enough in the garden, especially for the ducks. I do ferment my chick starter and layer mash to increase available nutrients and add good probiotics.

 

[tadkerson]

Tim,

What would happen if I bred that wanna-be Wheaten roo I posted a page back, to an actual wheaten pullet? I assume it may work in reverse as the BCMs that produce Wheaten sports? That some would be a mix, some would be BCM looking, and some would look like Wheatens? I went back yesterday and looked at his baby pics. That roo was very dark, not white on the face, and only a white belly. He also had slate colored legs. Then looking at his pic at I think, 4 weeks, I noticed he showed cinnamon coloring in the wing where the primaries were coming in! I had never noticed it before, because I wasn't looking for it. Then when he turns 2 years old, the cinnamon shows up again? It is something I am just going to do, my curiousity won't let it go, and chicken mistakes can always be eaten. So, I guess my question is, can the BCM be totally bred out at some point with this type of a cross, or is that ER always going to be in there to rear it's head somewhere else down the road? My thinking here is to breed the best looking Wheaten cockeral from that clutch back to his Wheaten mother, and to any of his Wheaten sisters. I would think the sibling breeding would show me in short order how that was going to turn out? Am I totally confused and heading down the wrong path, or is this a possible way to see what will happen? As you can tell, I am no genetics whiz, but dabbling and experimenting is always fun!

The black copper marans has a basic plumage color patten called gold birchen- variety names for the same bird are brown red and black copper. You may already know this but I will put in information for others to read also. If you cross your black copper (the one you think carries wheaten) with a wheaten, then if he carries wheaten it will show up in the down of the offspring. The wheaten chicks will have some form of wheaten down. I would hatch at least 20 chicks. If your BCM have good egg color, this may help improve you wheaten egg color. The chicks that hatch with wheaten down will have wheaten adult plumage. I would not use any of the offspring that are black copper (from the cross) for breeding. Sell them as egg layers and not breeders.


Tim

 

[geebs]

Good morning ladies!!!

I love Tim's explaination and would love his input on some more of these little "breeding snaffoos"... Would save us a bunch of time and feed to have a little "splainin'" as opposed to the trial and cull method.

 

[ashandvine]

Fodder takes too long for someone who does let their birds out to range. 22% protein is 17$ a 50# bag here so I do that and can feed it to all the birds and the ducks and now turkeys too. Fermenting was the plan but its tough in winter if you don't have a place inside that's convenient to keep it bubbling.

I guess what gets me about all the gene things is this: I am not a scientist, much as I like it, and I don't have the room or where with all to raise out 20 chicks just for s n g. They could be culled to meat I guess, which is part of the plan here but it wasn't in the business plan. If I breed a male with light legs (as in silvery whitish) to a bcm hen who doesn't show any signs of wheaton then aren't I dooming that next gen to carry the wheaten? I ask because I have a large cockerel here, biggest one so far, who is light in the hackles and legs. His feathering and size were what had me thinking to use him and I got advice to put him over a meleniz/sed hen (one where the copper doesn't show in her neck well) to counteract the light hackles. Should I can this idea? I have a few other boys here that aren't as big. I just hate to see birds that are meant to be dual purpose get smaller and smaller because we breed them to be pretty first and meat second. Just my opinion and I know its worth squat. Feed costs enough that raising small birds doesn't make a lot of sense to me right now, that's all.
FWIW... growing sunflower seeds and peanuts is easy.