Blue rocks

[emenheiser]

It is completely correct. Both the sire and dam influence the barring of the male offspring, hence my use of the word 'also'.

There are indeed many crosses that can result in a blue male with a single copy of barring, but none that you mention with a barred hen would allow the male to have the solid blue sisters pictured.

Your notation actually adds confusion because the female chromosome in chickens is W and not Y, and when giving the female genotype for any Z-linked trait, the non-applicable allele is denoted by a - (e.g., B-) and not a second letter.

 

[DMRippy]

It is completely correct. Both the sire and dam influence the barring of the male offspring, hence my use of the word 'also'.

There are indeed many crosses that can result in a blue male with a single copy of barring, but none that you mention with a barred hen would allow the male to have the solid blue sisters pictured.

Your notation actually adds confusion because the female chromosome in chickens is W and not Y, and when giving the female genotype for any Z-linked trait, the non-applicable allele is denoted by a - (e.g., B-) and not a second letter.

I don't do genetics so you get points there. But a novice at genetics will get the point.

Yes a cross with a SOLID ROO and Barred Hen make SEXLINK chicks. Single barred Roos and Solid Pullets. I have 2 pens set up to give me just that cross.

I just checked and I did mention that cross in the bottom of the post. I said a Blue or Splash male over a barred hen. ..... SEX LINKS.

 

[emenheiser]

I don't do genetics so you get points there. But a novice at genetics will get the point.

Yes a cross with a SOLID ROO and Barred Hen make SEXLINK chicks. Single barred Roos and Solid Pullets. I have 2 pens set up to give me just that cross.

I just checked and I did mention that cross in the bottom of the post. I said a Blue or Splash male over a barred hen. ..... SEX LINKS.

You are correct. My apologies; I was confused by your notation and missed the point you were trying to make. This exemplifies why correct notation and terminology are important, but I digress.

The bigger picture here is that barring has no role in proper blue color. Yes it can be used to make any of a number of sexable crosses if that is a goal, but that ability is lost when single barred males are used in a breeding pen.

It become even more troublesome if the single barred male is blue and is mated to a solid blue female, because the resulting splash chicks are particularly troublesome to sex.

But even if the confusion with sexing is avoided by not keeping barred chicks past the first generation, it is puzzling to me why a Blue Rock breeder would feel that a Barred is a good outcross. A century of selection for clean, crisp barring has resulted in slow, narrow feathering that, if nothing else, makes it difficult to achieve a fully furnished Rock tail.

 

[JoyfulPromise]

Wow! Thank you so much emenheiser and DMRippy for your VERY detailed answers! They honestly were very helpful, and though I don't understand all the tiny details on genetics, and I know there can be many hidden variables, it is neat to see the basic charts of possibilities from different pairings and color patterns.

I don't know if it will help in your figuring emenheiser, but ALL four of my Blue Rocks were hatched from eggs from Brookhaven's flock, which I believe she told me were from her Blue Barred Roo (with one barring gene) over 3 solid Blue and 2 Good Shepard Barred Rock hens.
Out of the 8 chicks that hatched from those eggs, I got the 2 Solid Blue pullets, and the 1 Blue Barred pullet, and a solid Blue, solid Black, regular Barred cockerel, and Bradford, the light Blue Barred cockerel that I kept. The solid Blue and solid Black boys were sent to DMRippy, as she mentioned earlier.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

But even if the confusion with sexing is avoided by not keeping barred chicks past the first generation, it is puzzling to me why a Blue Rock breeder would feel that a Barred is a good outcross. A century of selection for clean, crisp barring has resulted in slow, narrow feathering that, if nothing else, makes it difficult to achieve a fully furnished Rock tail.

My choice of using Barred was purely for type. The tail issues of Barred is notorious but with the faster feathering current blue stock may be corrected (knocking on wood here) or at least that's my hope. Current Blues are less puffy Orpingtons with yellow skin though I did have one nice black hen who was lost to a large skunk two years ago. If something goes wrong it always seems to happen to the keepers- delete Murphy and insert my name for that law.

I wanted to use Scott's Columbians as a black bird for type but was unsure of how that pattern would play out in hackles of future offspring. I've a steep learning curve in genetics but still more to climb. Prudence led back to the known of pullets from a barred dam. For improved size, type and shear economics as shipped eggs are such a gamble with my postal system the Reese line of Barred Plymouth Rock was the way to go. With shear numbers of hatching and filling the chest freezer with meat I'm certain I will achieve a faster feathering Blue of good type and size in X years. Though the best I can hope for is fully edged birds as lacing would have to be introduced.

It's a shame the Jersey Blue died out. This andalusion plumage bird was used to make Blue Rocks. Though the bird was of Java type the sire used had Plymouth type and was over Barred Rocks. Why it only took a few years for the Blues to be accepted into the SOP. It's funny, a cull of one breed was used to create the Blues. We don't have that luxury and need to find lacing from poor type. You've a long road with the Andalusion cock but the end will be stunning!

 

[emenheiser]

My choice of using Barred was purely for type. The tail issues of Barred is notorious but with the faster feathering current blue stock may be corrected (knocking on wood here) or at least that's my hope. Current Blues are less puffy Orpingtons with yellow skin though I did have one nice black hen who was lost to a large skunk two years ago. If something goes wrong it always seems to happen to the keepers- delete Murphy and insert my name for that law.

I wanted to use Scott's Columbians as a black bird for type but was unsure of how that pattern would play out in hackles of future offspring. I've a steep learning curve in genetics but still more to climb. Prudence led back to the known of pullets from a barred dam. For improved size, type and shear economics as shipped eggs are such a gamble with my postal system the Reese line of Barred Plymouth Rock was the way to go. With shear numbers of hatching and filling the chest freezer with meat I'm certain I will achieve a faster feathering Blue of good type in X years.

It's a shame the Jersey Blue died out. This andalusion plumage bird was used to make Blue Rocks. Though the bird was of Java type the sire used had Plymouth type and was over Barred Rocks. Why it only took a few years and Blues were excepted to SOP. You've a long road with the Andalusion cock but the end result will be stunning!

The only written history on the origin of the Blue Rock that I've been able to find was in "American Breeds of Poultry" by F. L. Platt (1921). In it, F. G . Hasselman (the originator) was described as using a Blue Andalusian x Barred Plymouth Rock cross to develop the Blue variety.

I don't doubt that Jersey Blues and many other breeds were used to make "Blue Rocks" subsequently (including some obvious Orpington influence in recent years), but I would be interested in the source of your information above. It would be great if more has been written down than I've found!

I decided against the Columbian due to the eb (brown) rather than E (extended black) base, and the brassiness issues that seem to plague the Columbian males. The Silver Penciled Rock could also be used, but they too are a minor variety that needs considerable work on type.

The exaggerated selection on barring makes the Barred Rock of today very different from the ones that Hasselman likely used. If and when I need to add an outcross to my line(s) to improve type, there is no doubt in my mind that I will use White Rocks!

 

[Egghead_Jr]

c1915: Black Plymouth Rocks - originally derived from Barreds - are popular in Northern England and are reported to be excellent layers. ‘Jersey Blues’ are imported into Britain from America having ‘Andalusian blue plumage, single combs, and Plymouth Rock type’, and are used to develop Blue Plymouth Rocks in both countries. James Bateman becomes one of the top English exhibitors of Barreds.
1920: Blue Plymouth Rocks are admitted to the American Standard of Perfection.

From this link: http://www.plymouth-rock-poultry.co.uk/plymouthrockhistory.htm

Knowing Jersey Blues were supposed to be of Java type and became extinct was from frantic research seeing if I could locate any last spring. And that's not easy as the web will bring you to Blue Jersey Giants most often not Jersey Blue fowl.


Good point on the White Rocks. Now that is another thing I was unsure about so decided against that out cross. Your implying the Whites white is indeed recessive. If so then another instance of "Egghead_Jr"s Law. I don't know who Murphy was but if his luck was worse than mine I'm certain he couldn't keep good humor and died of suicide.


ETA: I had to delete the date I'd written for extinction of Jersey Blue as I'd written the date of origin of Blue Jersey Giants. Going back into research on this breed this evening I couldn't find anything written on them after 1921. Red earlobe, andalusion plumage bird of Java type with good brown/tinted egg production. Cocks grew to 10+ lbs.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

I was out shoveling the drive when it hit me. Panting from labor leaning on the shovel in reality. I did know White Plymouth was recessive white but decided the years of eradicating single copy recessive white from the flock was a wash (six in one, half dozen other) to improved type and faster growth through judicious culling from the Barred out cross. That decision may have been in error due to my lack of hands on experience.

Back to the origin of Blues again. I was also thinking of the validity of Jersey Blue being the sire. Unless work on this breed started prior to 1915 (reread "American Breed of Poultry" section on Blue Rocks and see it was) there is no way the bird in a 1919 photo was produced using Andalusion breed short of the hand of God. I'll post that picture again you already have as it brings me such joy dreaming about the return of this variety.



Newbould's site section on history clearly indicates it was copy and pasted from some source. One could contact them for further investigation but it is nothing more than academic exercise as the Jersey Blue is extinct and Andalusions are the only alternative for origin now. I enjoy academic exercise as much as every other OCD inflicted person but should get back to shoveling before the little lady gets violent with me. A possible shorter route might be to sire Andalusion over Blue Jersey Giant then again to F1 pullets to have a laced bird of better size to start on Rocks. That again is 2 years gone and the start of earlobe battles. I told you I had OCD.

 

[australorp]

Hey Stan this is what it's looking like.

 

[tigercreek]

Hey Stan this is what it's looking like.

He looks good if he is as young as he looks. Needs to grow a fuller breast. That is the last place they fill out usually. Nice length of back and a good looking tail coming in........stan