Breeding back-turkeys

[Tunastopper]

Quote:
I never said I bring in new blood every year. I don't. I said I don't inbreed. I do understand different breeding methods. I have also tried many. But what I find works best for me is the start with birds that have something I want to add to my flock. I always breed to get a better bird. I don't want a duplicate of the parents. I want better than the parents. I have a closed flock. When I started my breeding program, I purchased different lines (unrelated stock) from some top breeders that I knew. I know what these lines produced and they had qualities that I wanted. I had these lines for enough years that I know what crosses work best and I can also try a few new crosses every year. You just keep good records. I don't have alot of the problems you get from inbreeding. I have birds that lay long into the heat of summer. My hens are just now starting to slow down some. My egg productions and fertility is great. I have large size meaty birds.

 

[Frosty]

It sounds like you have a good plan in place, and I would love to see your turkeys! That should be the goal of any breeding program, start with the best and try to make it better.

I think even you could agree that if you kept bringing in new blood, your results would be far less predictable because you wouldn't know the bloodlines and what they would produce. I think that was the point that Steve was trying to make.

 

[onthespot]

regardless of which way you go, there will likely be a lot of culling at the end and beginning of every breeding season, with inbreeding, line breeding, outcrossing, or competely hybridizing. Cull Cull Cull Cull Cull... Takes a lot of hatchlings, regardless, to produce a few individuals that will improve a flock. The better the flock, the harder it is to improve upon it. Lots of different ways to "get there from here" and you just pick the one that works best for you and the birds you have, the money you can throw at your flock, and the time and space it takes to get it done.

 

[Tunastopper]

Quote:
The only reason I have a closed flock is to prevent disease. All breeding methods have its problems. Just because you inbreed or line breed does not make a good breeder or a good breeding program. Its not the method that makes a good breeder.Using your dog example, do you think your puppy would have been a better dog if the mom was bred to her father? Look at the History of Midget Whites for example. Two very different methods were used for breeding them. You could not predict what happened with a closed breeding program. This quote is from Motherearth News. First they started with crossing two breeds.

At the University of Massachusetts, J. R. Smyth Jr. crossed an excellent line of broad-breasted whites with royal palm turkeys he had obtained from Dr. Edward Buss of Pennsylvania State University. The royal palms were a small exhibition strain, with reasonably good breast fleshing. Starting with the first generation crossbreds, Smyth selected on an individual bird basis (no records of specific pedigrees were kept) for small size, good breast fleshing and total balance.

After three generations, a financial problem and need for more space and the birds where given away. Wentworth was the new owner.

During the spring of 1972, these midget white turkeys were photostimulated with 14 hours of light and 10 hours of darkness to induce egg-laying. Wentworth mated these Midget turkeys artificially. During March, tom “A” was mated with two hens and tom “B” was used to mate with the other two hens. These eggs were all set and poults from the April hatch were pedigreed. Starting the first of April, the two toms were switched to mate with the opposite two hens. The eggs were collected during May and a second hatch was obtained in June. The poults from the second hatch were also pedigreed (records were kept of each bird’s lineage). The poults from the second mating may not have been an accurate pedigree, because the eggs saved in May could have been fertilized by the male used in March.

Wentworth used a rigorous pedigree approach to expand this flock of Midget white turkeys each year with great effort to avoid further inbreeding. He fixed the white color and continued to improve fleshing over the years. In the late 1970s an embryonic lethal gene began to be expressed (causing some poults to die before hatching). Over a period of about three years Wentworth was successful in eliminating the stock carrying this lethal gene.

From the mid ’70s on, selection pressure was maintained to fix tom body weight to about 13 pounds and hens at about 8 pounds. About every third year, breast meat volume was included as selection index in addition to body weight. Wentworth selected annually for higher egg production, fertility and hatchability. The hatchability averaged about 80 percent when the flock was dispersed. The original stock Wentworth obtained did not lay very well, averaging only about 30 or 40 eggs during a breeding season.

Currently the midgets lay 60 to 80 eggs per year. The eggs are quite large and appear similar to the eggs laid by the large broadbreasted lines of turkeys; they weigh only 3 to 5 grams less. The midget white turkey has the appearance of a miniature of the large commercial white line, for it has a very broad breast. This is not a commercially economically important meat bird, as Wentworth estimates the feed conversion is about 4 pounds of feed per pound of weight gain.​

 

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

Quote:
The only reason I have a closed flock is to prevent disease. All breeding methods have its problems. Just because you inbreed or line breed does not make a good breeder or a good breeding program. Its not the method that makes a good breeder.Using your dog example, do you think your puppy would have been a better dog if the mom was bred to her father? Look at the History of Midget Whites for example. Two very different methods were used for breeding them. You could not predict what happened with a closed breeding program. This quote is from Motherearth News. First they started with crossing two breeds.

At the University of Massachusetts, J. R. Smyth Jr. crossed an excellent line of broad-breasted whites with royal palm turkeys he had obtained from Dr. Edward Buss of Pennsylvania State University. The royal palms were a small exhibition strain, with reasonably good breast fleshing. Starting with the first generation crossbreds, Smyth selected on an individual bird basis (no records of specific pedigrees were kept) for small size, good breast fleshing and total balance.

After three generations, a financial problem and need for more space and the birds where given away. Wentworth was the new owner.

During the spring of 1972, these midget white turkeys were photostimulated with 14 hours of light and 10 hours of darkness to induce egg-laying. Wentworth mated these Midget turkeys artificially. During March, tom “A” was mated with two hens and tom “B” was used to mate with the other two hens. These eggs were all set and poults from the April hatch were pedigreed. Starting the first of April, the two toms were switched to mate with the opposite two hens. The eggs were collected during May and a second hatch was obtained in June. The poults from the second hatch were also pedigreed (records were kept of each bird’s lineage). The poults from the second mating may not have been an accurate pedigree, because the eggs saved in May could have been fertilized by the male used in March.

Wentworth used a rigorous pedigree approach to expand this flock of Midget white turkeys each year with great effort to avoid further inbreeding. He fixed the white color and continued to improve fleshing over the years. In the late 1970s an embryonic lethal gene began to be expressed (causing some poults to die before hatching). Over a period of about three years Wentworth was successful in eliminating the stock carrying this lethal gene.

From the mid ’70s on, selection pressure was maintained to fix tom body weight to about 13 pounds and hens at about 8 pounds. About every third year, breast meat volume was included as selection index in addition to body weight. Wentworth selected annually for higher egg production, fertility and hatchability. The hatchability averaged about 80 percent when the flock was dispersed. The original stock Wentworth obtained did not lay very well, averaging only about 30 or 40 eggs during a breeding season.

Currently the midgets lay 60 to 80 eggs per year. The eggs are quite large and appear similar to the eggs laid by the large broadbreasted lines of turkeys; they weigh only 3 to 5 grams less. The midget white turkey has the appearance of a miniature of the large commercial white line, for it has a very broad breast. This is not a commercially economically important meat bird, as Wentworth estimates the feed conversion is about 4 pounds of feed per pound of weight gain.
​

Do you raise Midget White turkeys? Instead of cutting and pasting pieces of the article you should have done the whole thing or posted a link to Mother Earth news. I thought I had seen it before, sometimes I write for them as well.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Sustainable-Farming/History-Midget-White-Turkey.aspx

There were 2 toms and 4 hens in the starter flock. A very small gene pool to work with. What the article only hints on is the breeding method.... classic line breeding from the short description. Line breeding is controled inbreeding.



Steve​

 

[ziggywiggy]

Don't go private with this. It is a very worth while discussion. Line breeding has been practised for many years on many different types of livestock. I just finished a book on raising rabbits and line breeding is recommended and even incouraged. On the other hand, some people suggest that line-breeding shrinks the gentic pool and after several years the worst traits in livestock may start showing up due to the lack of genetic diversity.
Just saying, it's a discussion worth having. One in which I would love to learn more about.

 

[Lotsapaints]

I agree since I'll be trying my hand at breeding next year. All the old books I've read say you should keep a closed flock and only go outside if you must as it will set your breeding pen back for several years. In my case there are not many breeders close or that advertise and it seems most people are propagators not breeders anyways. I totally enjoy Steve's words of wisdom I just don't take it personal it's the internet and inflections don't type well.....

 

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

Quote:
That is a common statement that people make is that is shrinks the gene pool when fact it does not. It can get rather involved and most of all requires very careful record keeping but as my dad used to say "it ain't rocket science son"

. Ziggy, start a line breeding thread, i'll be happy to share as much as I can. Thanks Paints, i'm not always as diplomatic as I should be I guess.... but getting better

Steve

 

[Tunastopper]

Back to the original question. If you only keep one Tom and your keeping his offspring to breed back. That is inbreeding not line breeding.


As far as the Midget Whites. Since there was no pedigree with the orginal Midget Whites it is not clear if the 6 were closley related in the 3 generation that they where bred. It does seem like alot of changes where made with selection with the second owner. What is not clear to me is it sounds like he improved on alot of egg laying and hatch rate but not feed conversition. I wonder if his selection was different they would be a different bird today.

 

[BubAnna Angus]

Well, thank you everyone for your input. I guess I need to figure out the difference between inbreeding, line breeding, and breeding back. I realize I need to figure out which birds I want to keep and which ones I need to cull. I guess I will work with what I have until I find something better to add to the gene pool. Thank you for the article links as well!