Cochin breeding, genetics, and showing

[mibirder]

The question I have is about comb size. I realize that "medium" is subjective and that proportionality affects appearance, but what is medium? I know some Leghorns and Black Faced Spanish are extra large sized, and there are some teeny, tiny ones too, but what's medium. Would something like a ratio to the distance between the eye center and base of the comb make sense?

Dave

 

[Black Cochin Bantams]

Ok, having read the 44 pages so far i have a question.

i can get hold a gold laced bantam cochin roo, but not pullets or hens. I was thinking about breeding gold laced batnams, not for showing, but for my backyard flock.

My plan is to breed a GL cochin Roo to a pair of SL wyandotte (single comb) bantams. I understand this would create a sex link gold (s-)? This would give me gold pullets, which i could cross back to my GL Roo to get some improvement? Or would crossing the f1 males back with the SLW get me closer?

As i said, not looking for SQ, just want to create as close to a GL as i can

It would be easier
to contact Dick Horstman at horstmanspoultry.com/ for eggs. He sells GL Cochin eggs for hatching. That would be faster than making out crosses and trying to breed back for improvement. You would have cocks and pullets next year.

 

[AndyCap]

It would be easier
to contact Dick Horstman at horstmanspoultry.com/ for eggs. He sells GL Cochin eggs for hatching. That would be faster than making out crosses and trying to breed back for improvement. You would have cocks and pullets next year.

Thanks for the idea, i doubt he would ship to South Africa though, or even if that would be safe/viable. Hence me wanting to recreate these here. I wish i had access to eggs and birds like you guys and girls do!

I understand that it may be quite a few years before the desired results, and even then they wont be show quality. t.

 

[Coopa Cabana]

I had forgotten about this Cochin site Nancy started. I need to start taking pictures of my defects before culling so others can understand. I really like what you are doing here! Keep it up.
Craig

Craig - this is exactly what we need!

 

[KLRA]

Thanks for that link, Gail. Very helpful on many defects!

I have a silver laced cockerel that may have the correct number of points on his comb, but it's not a very attractive comb because it's not evenly spaced between points and doesn't have much of a blade yet. He seems to be going through an ugly phase overall. 4 months old and still feathering in so slowly... I'll add pictures of his head tonight.

 

[Erin~TheChickenLover]

So, here are some pictures of Tux's head that I took today to use for the discussion. Tux is a black mottled bantam cochin. He is about 1 1/2 years old. Feel free to critique him.


Full body pics of Tux- 1 1/2 year old black mottled bantam cochin

Tux- 1 1/2 year old black mottled bantam cochin

Tux- 1 1/2 year old black mottled bantam cochin

Is he worth putting in the fair or is he just pet quality?

 

[KDailey]

Love this new idea! This is exactly what I need as I'm just learning about everything as far as correct type/color. The picture of the comb was really helpful. I would never have know that about not counting the blade. Also the explaination about crow head was also helpful. This is how all threads should be worked. Great job!

I'll read the SOP and think of a question....

ETA: well I can't come up with a question. Mainly because what I'm reading seems so vague that I don't know where to go with it.

Like what exatly does it mean by a "deep" head?? How can a head be deep?

 

[Coopa Cabana]

I've wondered about "deep" as well. I think I understand broad and short, but not the "deep". And for the bantam females, it says "fairly full in skull". What the heck does that mean?

I'm pretty sure now that I have at lease one, maybe two, crow head hens. Almost a straight line from the top of their head to the tip of their beak. Maybe the "deep" refers to that line - I'm thinking a deep curve in that line - rather than straight?

I just spend a lot of time studying the pictures on Cochins International. And remember, a bird can win one day under one judge, and be marked down another day by another judge. They have to interpret the standard as well. And a lot depends on the competition that particular day as well.

And I listen to what the Master Breeders are saying, but sometimes I have to temper that with the fact that many of them hatch 100's of birds in one season. They will cull for points on a comb at an extremely early age - as soon as they can accurately be counted. And I'm assuming they have the years of experience to recognize at an early age a crow head. Keep in mind that they are already working with excellent stock (for the most part). If I was hatching 100's of birds, I could afford to cull for points at an early age as well.

But I'm only hatching 2 - 3 dozen a year, if I'm lucky. And I'm also working with laced birds, so it's important to me to see how their lacing develops as well. Balancing type with pattern is very frustrating.

We all have to be comfortable with what we are willing, and can afford, to grow out. And just because I may grow them out a bit longer, does not mean that I will use them in my breeding program.

If you look closely at the combs, wattles and heads of the show winners on Cochins Intl, they do not all look the same, nor are they all perfect. But they all fit the general description in the Standard with no defects, and they all appear to be in correct proportion.

But speaking of Judging, they do have a "General Scale of Points". These are the maximum points possible for the areas we are discussing:

Beak Shape 2 Color 1
Comb Shape 5
Ear Lobes Shape 2 Color 2
Eyes Shape 2 Color 2
Head & Face Shape 3 Color 1
Wattles Shape 2

From there they start deducting points. As we move further thru the other body parts, you will see how every little part fits into the whole, and you have to make the determination for your own personal flock as to what you will cull and when. If I know everything I'm hatching has the possibility of being quality exhibition stock, I'm going to get rather picky and selective early on. If I'm not sure about the quality of what I'm hatching, or if I don't have the experience and knowledge to know exactly what I'm looking at in a chick or juvenile bird, I may be more afraid that I'm throwing the baby out with the bath water. Does that make sense???

A well-known breeder of exhibition SL Wyandottes posted a month or so ago on ShowBirdBid that last year, he focused and culled out all poor leg and primary wing color - no matter how great the birds were. He focused on just those two points last year - and he is reaping the rewards this year.

Sometimes you just have to chose what battles you are going to fight and when. A Master Breeder may chose to cull a bird because its beak color is wrong - his flock is that excellent that he can drill down to these details. For me, beak color may be the least of my problems (at least this year!!)

Sorry, I'm rambling again - I'd better go eat dinner. Hopefully, Craig or maybe Tom if he's watching will pick up the conversation.

 

[Black Cochin Bantams]

I've wondered about "deep" as well. I think I understand broad and short, but not the "deep". And for the bantam females, it says "fairly full in skull". What the heck does that mean?

I'm pretty sure now that I have at lease one, maybe two, crow head hens. Almost a straight line from the top of their head to the tip of their beak. Maybe the "deep" refers to that line - I'm thinking a deep curve in that line - rather than straight?

I just spend a lot of time studying the pictures on Cochins International. And remember, a bird can win one day under one judge, and be marked down another day by another judge. They have to interpret the standard as well. And a lot depends on the competition that particular day as well.

And I listen to what the Master Breeders are saying, but sometimes I have to temper that with the fact that many of them hatch 100's of birds in one season. They will cull for points on a comb at an extremely early age - as soon as they can accurately be counted. And I'm assuming they have the years of experience to recognize at an early age a crow head. Keep in mind that they are already working with excellent stock (for the most part). If I was hatching 100's of birds, I could afford to cull for points at an early age as well.

But I'm only hatching 2 - 3 dozen a year, if I'm lucky. And I'm also working with laced birds, so it's important to me to see how their lacing develops as well. Balancing type with pattern is very frustrating.

We all have to be comfortable with what we are willing, and can afford, to grow out. And just because I may grow them out a bit longer, does not mean that I will use them in my breeding program.

If you look closely at the combs, wattles and heads of the show winners on Cochins Intl, they do not all look the same, nor are they all perfect. But they all fit the general description in the Standard with no defects, and they all appear to be in correct proportion.

But speaking of Judging, they do have a "General Scale of Points". These are the maximum points possible for the areas we are discussing:

Beak Shape 2 Color 1
Comb Shape 5
Ear Lobes Shape 2 Color 2
Eyes Shape 2 Color 2
Head & Face Shape 3 Color 1
Wattles Shape 2

From there they start deducting points. As we move further thru the other body parts, you will see how every little part fits into the whole, and you have to make the determination for your own personal flock as to what you will cull and when. If I know everything I'm hatching has the possibility of being quality exhibition stock, I'm going to get rather picky and selective early on. If I'm not sure about the quality of what I'm hatching, or if I don't have the experience and knowledge to know exactly what I'm looking at in a chick or juvenile bird, I may be more afraid that I'm throwing the baby out with the bath water. Does that make sense???

A well-known breeder of exhibition SL Wyandottes posted a month or so ago on ShowBirdBid that last year, he focused and culled out all poor leg and primary wing color - no matter how great the birds were. He focused on just those two points last year - and he is reaping the rewards this year.

Sometimes you just have to chose what battles you are going to fight and when. A Master Breeder may chose to cull a bird because its beak color is wrong - his flock is that excellent that he can drill down to these details. For me, beak color may be the least of my problems (at least this year!!)

Sorry, I'm rambling again - I'd better go eat dinner. Hopefully, Craig or maybe Tom if he's watching will pick up the conversation.

Packing for a show. Taking Xander to show in an APA/ABA show over 3 hrs from here. Will check this post closer when I get home.

 

[Coopa Cabana]

The more I try to understand "deep" and "fairly full of skull", I do think that they are intended to be the opposite of crow head. The one thing that I noticed, when I went back to Cochins International and studied photos on the Show Results page, is that the winners all have "foreheads" - if that makes sense. Foreheads that appear more upright, rather than slanted toward the top of the head like a crow head. Let me know if you all notice that as well.

This seems like a good break in the discussions to move ahead to the NECK and HACKLES.

The General Scale of Points for the NECK is as follows:

White Birds:
Shape: 3 Color: 3

Other than White:
Shape: 1 Color: 5

So while the Neck as a whole is given 6 points, it varies between Shape and Color for White Birds.

While we discuss the Neck and Hackles, feel free to go back to the Face and Head if needed. But please don't jump forward.

I know how difficult it can be to get decent photos of necks - they always seem so alert - sticking those necks out to see what's going on. So try and get shots of them when they are calm and sitting quietly.

We want to see short, well proportioned and nicely arched necks, and full, flowing hackles.