Cream Legbar Club -- WWIT

[faykokoWV]

I agree with all that the data base will be cumbersome, but if we can pull it off, it will be fantastic. I've heard talk of other breed groups wanting to do this and I think as more people take up chickens as a hobby it will be important. Having a "pedigree" will help keep egg prices up where they belong and help prevent issues in the future. I think it will be a lot easier to do this now when the breed is new than it would be to do it 5-10, heck even 2 years down the line.

Every time someone wants to buy hatching eggs from me for my other breeds, the first question they ask is " what lines are these" We all know that it doesn't really matter what lines they came from if breeding hasn't been kept to standard... but its a question people want answered. The data base will help ensure that people can't claim a line they don't have (hope that makes sense, kind of rambling there) and give breeders credit for their work.

 

[MnMPoultry]

I know some really awesome, free, no ads webhosts that I've used quite often. I can buy the domain as well, registered to the club, of course.

I can design and implement a database, but in no way shape or form do I want the task of tracking and verifying entries. Honestly, I think it's a ridiculous idea, and have from the jump, but I'm open to it. Seriously, other livestock, it works great due to the gestation periods, growth rates, limited offspring births, and if ever there arises a question on legit lineage, DNA testing exists for these types of livestock.

I literally have 100-200 chicks hatching each week, and will be hatching that many starting in the spring of just Cream Legbars... You want the task of verifying each chick to make sure they conform when they get older? I'm assuming we won't be able to submit to the database until at least 4 months of age for physical verification... What about someone that has hatched chicks from a few different breeders, didn't track and didn't mark, and then mixes up the lineage when they mark and submit? This thing is epic fail from concept to implementation, but if the club wants it, the club wants it. It's a huge waste of time and resources when you look at the big picture.

Do we have a chance to do something groundbreaking? Sure, but there is absolutely no way possible to keep it accurate and legit.

 

[MnMPoultry]

Having a "pedigree" will help keep egg prices up where they belong and help prevent issues in the future.

You mean so that sellers of hatching eggs can over-value their birds more than they already do? If that's the case, it looks like the breed is gonna head down the path of, "Oh, your birds aren't in the club database, they're not REALLY Cream Legbars."

On that note, I vote 100% against it instead of being open to the idea. This will just serve to give the club an elitist attitude in the long run.

"That bird isn't a standard color, it's not one of this breed..." Sound familiar?

 

[1muttsfan]

Sounds like a lot of progress is being made.

On the database, I recommend that you have a club registrar who is in charge of the database and ensures data integrity.  I'd consider letting anyone register cream legbars for the next two years if they submit photos and demonstrate that the birds have no disqualifying traits from the breed standard.  (There are only a few DQs in the standard: Side sprigs on comb. Eye pupil other than round and clearly defined. Crooked breast. Wry tail. Any bodily deformity.)  After the two year open registration period is over I'd suggest that only the descendants of registered birds or newly imported birds (proof should be required of legal importation) that meet the standard would be registered.

Many breeds of animals, when first being established, have a very limited number of individuals to use for a breeding population. Having an open registry at the beginning of your efforts is a very wise choice. Remember that even individuals that are not perfect specimens can make a genetic contribution that might prove valuable later, such as superior egg laying or egg quality, fertility, hardiness, and vigor. Once a larger population has been established you can start making pickier selections based on traits such as appearance. Attempting to select based only on appearance when you have a small population can easily lead to pretty birds that are substandard in other ways.

 

[stoneunhenged]

Actually, it is the market and not individual sellers that most often set the prices on legbar hatching eggs. Many egg auctions start at just $1 and bidders in the free market ultimately decide what they'll pay for hatching eggs. If you believe in free market capitalism this is a good example of how it works.

The purpose of a pedigree registry is to build a stronger breed. Besides ensuring that animals are purebred, a registry also provides critical data when making breeding decisions for livestock. Among other things, it helps breeders avoid inbreeding. There are hundreds of breed registries in America --many of them coordinated by the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy-- and they serve a very useful purpose. It isn't about promoting elitism, and if you look at the humble and cooperative way people have approached this legbar club, they strike me as the opposite of elite. They're seeking input and ideas in the most open way. Assign bad motives to people who have been nothing but generous with their time and ideas seems out of place in this thread.

 

[MnMPoultry]

I didn't say anything about the 10-20 people contributing to the club and standards at the moment. Notice how I said, "in the long run," in that post?

What about my other points?

What if I take my "pure" Cream Legbar, breed it to another breed, and have a few chicks come out looking like the Cream Legbar Standard, which are only actually 50% Cream Legbar, and register them as coming from X Male and V Female? What if this chick is hiding a ton of recessive traits? Continue this, with people registering these crosses.... Now what? Who is going to fix the registry to purge these "pure legbar entries" from it, and then proceed to tell these people their birds aren't allowed in the registry now?

What about verifying someone's chicks who are hatching 100 a week?

Yes, you can design a registry, you can use a registry, but for poultry and the way poultry works, you can't have a long running functional registry.

 

[MnMPoultry]

Many breeds of animals, when first being established, have a very limited number of individuals to use for a breeding population. Having an open registry at the beginning of your efforts is a very wise choice. Remember that even individuals that are not perfect specimens can make a genetic contribution that might prove valuable later, such as superior egg laying or egg quality, fertility, hardiness, and vigor. Once a larger population has been established you can start making pickier selections based on traits such as appearance. Attempting to select based only on appearance when you have a small population can easily lead to pretty birds that are substandard in other ways.

My two perfect specimen CL's produce chicks with DQ's. These bird with DQ's aren't allowed in the registry? They are "pure" Cream Legbars, but they aren't, because you can't "register" it.

 

[1muttsfan]

Wow, that is a lot of "what if's".

Most crosses are going to look exactly like a cross, so it will be a rare thing for someone to register a purebred-looking cross. And if they do, shame on them.

Regisration would obviously be optional, for those who are interested in tracing genetics and breeding for the best individuals. If you are not interested in that, feel free to move on.

 

[MnMPoultry]

So here are some ideas. I tried 3 different font styles and other symbols like the stars and flags - remember these are working roughs so input is needed to get to something with consensus. The pair of birds are from Punnetts Legbar paper. I have to admit I kept the dark blue because it just seemed to add the best and most contrast. Was not sure which star folks might prefer so they would appear as a pair of either filled or stroked stars on each side.

Food for thought... blackbirds13 posted this about a month ago for us.

 

[MnMPoultry]

Wow, that is a lot of "what if's".
Most crosses are going to look exactly like a cross, so it will be a rare thing for someone to register a purebred-looking cross. And if they do, shame on them.
Regisration would obviously be optional, for those who are interested in tracing genetics and breeding for the best individuals. If you are not interested in that, feel free to move on.

Yes, it is a lot of "What if's?"

This type of thinking and discussion is necessary with this type of endeavor. You must look at all angles of approach and all possible outcomes, as well as all the paths in between, in order for such an organization to be successful.

FYI: I've already said I can design and build such a database, as well as create the interface for it. It's a very very simple thing to do from that perspective.

If the club wants it, as a group, you need multiple verifications for an entry/acceptance.