Well said!
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Thanks for the thoughts. It is interesting to see both sides from your perspective.I also have some mixed feelings about the viability of a database for chickens. As many have pointed out, the prolific reproductive habits of chickens make tracking who comes from where a somewhat overwhelming task. I am not sure that I could expect a breeder or backyard chicken keeper to know who comes from who if they are operating on any sort of scale. I know that even with my small flock (5 hens, 2 roos) I might not be able to report correct lineage for everyone.
At the same time, as a purchaser of stock it would be very valuable to see even a very broad picture of the genetic pool you are purchasing from. For example, if you had offspring that you knew came from one of 2 or 3 different roosers and had photos and descriptions of them and you had photos and descriptions of the 10 hens or so along with photos you could get a good idea of the gene pool likely present in the dozen hatching eggs you may purchase. I think a tool like this could be useful for moving towards an SOP as well as for both new and old lovers of the breed to get good information. I guess at the end of the day, even an imperfect and inexact record would be useful. For that reason, I think it is worth making a go of it.
I also am concerned about the potential for people to be put off from the breed because they can not "register" their birds or because they feel it is an insular sort of organization. I think we all have to work together on the honor system with the information that is entered into whatever sort of database may be as well as aware that we not put up any unnecessary roadblocks for new enthusiasts to join in. I do like the idea of having some sort of feedback mechanism that incents people to keep their information as honest and transparent as possible.
I suppose blazing a new trail is never straigforward nor easy, however that does not mean it should not be attempted. I thinik that it will be good to try it on a small scale while the breed is relatively new. It will allow us to be more flexible in making changes to formatting. reporting, and input as we see fit.
I'm in on a club, but sketchy on a database.
Is it a gimmick, advertisement tool, money maker for anyone? YES - That's exactly what it will end up being in the long run.
Who resolves issues? Provides updates? No one has answered my asking of, "Who wants to be in charge of verifying that a bird physically matches the standard?" Some has to go physically see the bird. I can make any bird look like a top-notch specimen with a camera. In person is an entirely different story.
Does it exclude anyone, either by cost or nature? YES, it absolutely does when "You're Cream Legbar doesn't meet the SOP".
Is it smart, easy to use? I dunno about smart, but easy to use, well, it can be designed that way. That part is all about interface.
For example the American Dairy Goat Association manages the database for dairy goats. Is a club the place to have a database? I say yes, if it exists, it should be by the club, because who else would do the database?
Do people love or hate to use databases, ie. what are individual incentives to do this? That's up to an individual. In theory people are going to love it, in practice, probably not.
Does it cost more to maintain and upgrade, then it's value to the users? Toss up, it depends on how big it ends up being, how many people use it, etc. THis can't be answered until later down the road, after the initial time and money investment... Which could end up being a wash and a waste anyways.
Is purity a link to where you bought your chickens or to how they meet the definition of the breed? Purity should be 100% linked to the heritage of the bird, and NOT the physical characteristics or how well it holds up to the standards.
Can it improve breeding? In theory, yes.
Can you actually trace a chick to an adult chicken? Nope, you CAN NOT trace the lineage of a chick through any kind of testing available.
In terms of fraud, it always exists. Think about the world around you, a database makes little difference. YES
A predigree database serves a number of functions if it's properly designed and implemented. It gives novice buyers of birds some degree of assurance that they're buying purebred birds. It gives more sophisticated users the ability to see the physical traits of flocks from which they're contemplating acquiring birds, and it helps them avoid inbreeding in the future. If pedigree registries are useful to improve other species of animals, I don't see why they wouldn't be useful for chickens. Other species do not have the potential of having ONE OFFSPRING PER DAY, maybe one per year, this why it does not apply the same to chickens. Why can't anyone grasp this?
Here's an example. I'm in the process of trying to breed better black copper marans. There are many cosmetic defects associated with this breed: mossy chest coloring in the roosters, squirrel tails, white tail feathers, inadequate leg feathering, wrong eye color, etc. There are also some flocks that produce eggs that are too light in color. I've spent quite a bit of money acquiring breeding stock, but mostly it's a crap shoot. I've gotten a few nice birds, but I also I've wasted hundreds of dollars on hatching eggs and chicks that ultimately produced inferior adult birds. I've culled dozens of expensive birds that didn't make the cut. Would it have been useful if I could go to an online database and see not only the parents of my birds but also their ancestors extending for generations? Yes, very much so, and I would be happy to pay more money for a bird that could prove it came from sound genetics. Would it also be nice to be able to select birds that wouldn't result in a high inbreeding coefficient with my current flock? Yes, again, this would be very helpful. Anyone who is seriously trying to improve their flock will physically lay their own eyes and hands on parent stock before buying eggs to hatch or chicks to grow out, or get input from someone who has.
At this point in time, without the standard, it doesn't matter if you lay eyes and hands on a bird, because there is no standard. Anyone serious about breeding to the standard, after it's accepted, will.
Just because you have the chance to do something, doesn't mean it needs to be done. If a club majority wants this, then they want it, however, I disagree with it. Only thing is, this entire thing is being done bass ackwards anyways.I also have some mixed feelings about the viability of a database for chickens. As many have pointed out, the prolific reproductive habits of chickens make tracking who comes from where a somewhat overwhelming task. I am not sure that I could expect a breeder or backyard chicken keeper to know who comes from who if they are operating on any sort of scale. I know that even with my small flock (5 hens, 2 roos) I might not be able to report correct lineage for everyone. I think I've made this point a couple of times already... Glad to know someone else sees this.
At the same time, as a purchaser of stock it would be very valuable to see even a very broad picture of the genetic pool you are purchasing from. For example, if you had offspring that you knew came from one of 2 or 3 different roosers and had photos and descriptions of them and you had photos and descriptions of the 10 hens or so along with photos you could get a good idea of the gene pool likely present in the dozen hatching eggs you may purchase. I think a tool like this could be useful for moving towards an SOP as well as for both new and old lovers of the breed to get good information. I guess at the end of the day, even an imperfect and inexact record would be useful. For that reason, I think it is worth making a go of it. Breeder list + Ask for pictures of flock = Same thing, no potential for conflict and hard feelings, not used as a tool to jack the prices up on a new comer... etc. etc. etc.
I also am concerned about the potential for people to be put off from the breed because they can not "register" their birds or because they feel it is an insular sort of organization. I think we all have to work together on the honor system with the information that is entered into whatever sort of database may be as well as aware that we not put up any unnecessary roadblocks for new enthusiasts to join in. I do like the idea of having some sort of feedback mechanism that incents people to keep their information as honest and transparent as possible. You mean like, "Your bird macthes the standard in every way, except feather color, you son't have an 'insert breed here!'"???
"Well, this bird came from two birds in your database..."
"Too bad, it doesn't match what we want."
I suppose blazing a new trail is never straigforward nor easy, however that does not mean it should not be attempted. I thinik that it will be good to try it on a small scale while the breed is relatively new. It will allow us to be more flexible in making changes to formatting. reporting, and input as we see fit. There's also no point in blazing a trail just because no one else has done it, especially when the trail will obviously run straight off a cliff or into a vertical wall.