Cream Legbar Hybrid Thread

[Laingcroft]

Almost forgot....

HAPPY NEW YEAR AND MANY HAPPY HATCHES IN 2014!!

 

[DCchicken]

I’ll add my two cents on this topic as well. WARNING – Long.

I have been unable to find quotable material in any of the articles read thus far as to Punnett’s production purpose for the Legbar. If someone does have a citable statement from Punnett, please post it. These are the verifiable facts: Punnett developed the Legbar as an experiment in auto-sexing chickens just after WWI (1920s) (Journal of Genetics – The Legbar - . http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/41/1.pdf )

What is the value in auto-sexing chicks? To determine male / female at hatch, eliminating a need for (training and payment of) vent sexing staff and to best utilize expensive or limited resources (feed & housing) for one sex over the other. So which sex is more important? In a dual purpose breed, numbers of both male and female are desirable, one for eggs and one/both for meat. If both are utilized, there is no need to select at hatch; therefore, the logical conclusion is that auto-sexing allows one to select for more females and fewer males at hatch, indicating a market preference for eggs over meat.

Now we know the –bar part of the equation, the Barred Plymouth Rock, is a dual purpose breed but Punnett chose it for the barring gene according to the article. The Leg- part of the equation, the Brown Leghorn, was used for its sexual dimorphism between the male and female plumage, again a component of auto-sexing, not functional purpose. In 1930 he began experiments with the blue egg laying Chilean hens. Again the focus on eggs. The Cream Project arose from those experiments and focused on crossing with various colours in the Leghorn. (Journal of Genetics – The Blue Egg http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/27/465.pdf ) At some point the Cream birds were crossed with a Legbar, resulting in the Crested Cream Legbar which was standardized and the SOP accepted by the UK poultry authority. Subsequently the Crested Cream Legbar diminished in popularity and were brought back by various breeders in the 1980s, presumably to the same SOP.

The (Crested) Cream Legbar at the time we began acquiring them from Greenfire in 2011/2 were known as an egg laying breed in their country of origin and their size there was set at 2.70-3.40kg (6-7lb) for cocks and 2-2.70kg (4-6lb). Since the APA requires one ideal weight instead of a range, 7 lbs was selected for our cocks and 6 lbs for hens – both the high side of the British weight range. Note that these weights are already larger than that of the Leghorn which is 6 lbs for cocks and 4.5 lbs for hens, yet smaller than the Plymouth Rock at 9.5 lbs for cocks and 7.5 lbs for hens.

Other interesting notes from the APA Standard of the Plymouth Rock, a dual purpose breed, “Overlarge specimens are not to be desired, they become clumsy and poor producers. They are not the active useful fowl desired for this dual purpose breed.” From the Leghorn SOP, “[Leghorns] comprise a group characterized by great activity, hardiness and prolific egg-laying abilities. Aside from their [beauty and variety] as exhibition specimens, their excellent productive qualities are valuable assets of the breed. Breeders, exhibitors and judges should pay due regard to the Standard weight of the Leghorns.” In reading these comments it appears that deviations in size [form] over the standards reduces function.

Since the Cream Legbar was based on the Legbar/Leghorn, and is distinguished from the other Cambridge breeds by its blue egg production, it makes sense for our draft standard to remain as is with respect to its economic qualities of “Especially noted for the auto-sexing feature in offspring, and production of eggs. […] blue or green.” The current draft standard weights are already midway between the Legbar’s parent breeds. What is the benefit to increasing its standard size by two pounds or more, possibly diminishing its egg production characteristics? Seven pound cocks and six pound hens are decent sizes for standard chickens and would certainly dress out to a reasonable table size of an earlier time (pre-Cornish X). Dominques, Andalusians, Barnvelders and Welsummers are four other breeds with an ideal weight of 7 lbs. for the cock.

And last, but certainly not least, the (Crested) Cream Legbar is what it is --- and still considered critical. Its standard was set 60 years ago, give or take, with direct input from its creator. If we don't like that standard, then we don't breed to it and don't call it The Crested Cream Legbar. If one truly wants a meaty auto-sexing Cambridge breed there are several already in need of dedicated breeders: the Brussbar (8-10# cocks), Buffbars (Orpington 8-10# cocks) and Wybars (Wyandotte 8-9# cocks)


I take this to be an admission that aiming for a dual purpose CCL would sacrifice something the breed already HAS i.e. egg production characteristics, to gain what it DOESN'T i.e. meat production, in order to make it dual purpose. Why is egg production such an anathema to you? There are so many fantastic dual purpose breeds out there already, several also in need of preservation. And as noted above there are plenty of large Cambridge auto-sexing breeds in need of breeders too. Why must the CCL be changed from what it is to a bigger dual purpose breed with more weight?

If you (and your customers) really want something like the CCL: an auto-sexing, cream barred, blue egg gene carrying crested chicken in a larger size that lays fewer eggs, then by all means select for those characteristics in your flock, you don't need the standard to do so; but please stop trying to alter the breed and impose your ideals upon others who are trying to preserve the Crested Cream Legbar described in the Standard as drafted by Punnett and modified here only insofar as it needs to fit APA format.

I am not trying to change the Crested Cream Legbar. I believe the original intention was a dual purpose breed. Therefore I am going to breed towards that view. I am not trying to stop anyone from creating their vision of the SOP. In fact your own post is trying to impose your ideal on what I believe to be the true version of the Crested Cream Legbar. I will work on my SOP and breed towards it. You and others can work your laying only version.

I think that others have already harmed the CCL by trying to make it just a laying breed. If you just want a good layer, why not stick with a hybrid? The Crested Cream Legbar is a dual purpose breed. The market will decide which version of the Crested Cream Legbar is correct. You are free to draft your version of the SOP and I will draft mine. In the end, we will probably just end up with two breeds called Crested Cream Legbars. I am just fine with that concept.

 

[chicken pickin]

I've decided that I prefer my bigger hens to my smaller ones, they are by no means large, they're just a little more filled out. I'm not sure how this thread got so angry over a size discrepancy, but I can tell you, it's issues like this that made a new comer like me, want to run for the hills...but
Since this is the HYBRID thread, I have a question about a mix...
I have only Cream Roos, but need some extra egg layers, and want to hatch some of my red sex-link eggs. Would that cross be sexable at hatch?

No this cross will not be sexable at hatch. If you are using a CL roo , I believe you would need to use a silver based hen to create sexlink chicks.

I cross my CL roo to Silver Laced Wyandottes and Silver Laced Cochin. Both those crosses create first generation sexlinks.

 

[Ashdoes]

No this cross will not be sexable at hatch. If you are using a CL roo , I believe you would need to use a silver based hen to create sexlink chicks.

I cross my CL roo to Silver Laced Wyandottes and Silver Laced Cochin. Both those crosses create first generation sexlinks.

Thank you for answering. I have silver laced Wyandottes, but I hate them. Lol. They're just not my favorite personality.
I'm not too worried about the sex-link cross being sexable at hatch, since the Creams were so easy to see the males at two weeks, even without already knowing, the boys combs were always bigger.
I wonder what they'd look like crossed with Cochins? I have two blacks, a blue and a self-blue.
We are getting our incubator next week, and I'd like to practice using it before I use the Cream Legbar eggs.

 

[chicken pickin]

Thank you for answering. I have silver laced Wyandottes, but I hate them. Lol. They're just not my favorite personality.
I'm not too worried about the sex-link cross being sexable at hatch, since the Creams were so easy to see the males at two weeks, even without already knowing, the boys combs were always bigger.
I wonder what they'd look like crossed with Cochins? I have two blacks, a blue and a self-blue.
We are getting our incubator next week, and I'd like to practice using it before I use the Cream Legbar eggs.

Here are my CL Cochin crosses

 

[HaplessRunner]

Folks,

Just a short reminder. This thread was setup to discuss cream legbar hybrids. SOP discussions do not belong here. This thread is deliberately dedicated to our projects and experiments with cream legbar crosses and the knowledge that can be gained from these crosses. We also love pictures of our hybrids.

Tony

 

[DCchicken]

Folks,

Just a short reminder. This thread was setup to discuss cream legbar hybrids. SOP discussions do not belong here. This thread is deliberately dedicated to our projects and experiments with cream legbar crosses and the knowledge that can be gained from these crosses. We also love pictures of our hybrids.

Tony

My apologies. How about I cross a Cemani rooster with a Cream Legbar hen? Would that be of interest to the thread? We could call it the Cembar. The autosexing would be lost but it would be an all black birds that lays a blue egg.

 

[HaplessRunner]

My apologies. How about I cross a Cemani rooster with a Cream Legbar hen? Would that be of interest to the thread? We could call it the Cembar. The autosexing would be lost but it would be an all black birds that lays a blue egg.

That would be interesting too. LOL- I would also like to take you up on your earlier offer of Cemani chicks!

 

[chicken pickin]

My apologies. How about I cross a Cemani rooster with a Cream Legbar hen? Would that be of interest to the thread? We could call it the Cembar. The autosexing would be lost but it would be an all black birds that lays a blue egg.

OH I LOVE THE SOUND OF THAT!!!

 

[DCchicken]

That would be interesting too. LOL- I would also like to take you up on your earlier offer of Cemani chicks!

Going to start incubating again in a month. I have two new Cemani roosters in quarantine. One mean CCL hen that tried to bite me today may be used to test for any hidden bugs. I told the CCLs, never ever bite me.