Drained a Hen's Abdomen.. Rest in Peace, Olivia 11-5-10

[speckledhen]

@twilightgecko usually we don't see their bums without feathers. They usually have some redness on them. May be nothing.
@Trish1974 , you said she started becoming ill Saturday, but I have to tell you that she was probably ill long before that. You are seeing the critical stage. Feathers hide a multitude of sins, so to speak. They hide weight loss, bloating, mites/lice, wounds, etc. Plus, chickens are stoic animals unless they are truly at death's doorstep. It's just hard to say what's going on in the body in the early stages of anything. She's lucky to have a caring owner. That is what they need most, someone who truly cares, even if we are usually helpless to really fix their issues.

 

[speckledhen]

She stopped laying 2 months ago. I posted a thread awhile back when she stopped but since she had no other symptoms everyone said it was probably nothing. Two weeks ago she acted ill for one day after laying a shell-less or lash egg, but came out of it on her own.
I just checked on her (she is in a dog crate with straw in my utility room). She stood up to change positions and when she did noticed a puddle of fluid underneath her. She is still draining through the puncture I made with the needle. Is that okay if I keep the area clean?

And it may have been nothing, but that's the point, really. We can't see inside to know if there is a problem building up so if you're with your birds and observing them daily and still don't see anything to make note of, it's not your fault. I try to keep people off the guilt trips, you know? Now, if they never pick up their birds to examine them, never even try to see if they are all doing well, just throw feed and water and walk away every time, that's different, but the point is, these laying issues build over time. Cancer, for example, takes time to take over the body and we just don't have xray vision.

Yes, it's okay to let it drain and clean her up. Better out than in, right?

 

[Trish1974]

My Goldie (in my avatar) passed away about an hour ago. I don't understand; as she was so much better after I drained off the fluid yesterday. She rapidly took a turn for the worse overnight. She was very weak, comb was turning purple, and would no longer eat or drink. I put her in a warm Epsom salt bath hoping to ease her discomfort. Within about 10 minutes I could feel her dying. I can't explain how, I could just tell. But it wasn't disturbing or uncomfortable. She passed about 10 minutes after that with my hands around her (I had to hold her up, she had no muscle control) and talking to her softly.
This is my first flock member loss and of course she was my favorite and the best hen (personality-wise) in the flock. I'm utterly devastated. Thank you @speckledhen for creating this thread. I hope it will help others like it helped me.

 

[twilightgecko]

i am so sorry. i've only lost one flock member, also my favourite, a BO too.. she was taken by a dog.. i never got to say goodbye.. at least you got to comfort her as she went.. [hugs] .. my barred rock Starlin is still very swollen and red on her bum.. i checked her this morning, she is molting and all her feathers are gone down there, it's warm and red and feels hard to me.. i am thinking she's internally laying.. but she's happy, eating and is bright eyed..

this pic from the other day.. now her bum is bare.. looks worse.. i don't think i will attempt draining.. feels too tight..
hmm.. just sharing, i didn't realize how common this kind of problem was.. of course, i've only been a chicken mum for 1 1/2 years.. this is my first flock..

 

[speckledhen]

@twilightgecko sorry to hear that. It's a VERY common problem and here is why:

From the article:

http://www.nature.com/nrc/journal/v13/n6/full/nrc3535.html?foxtrotcallback=true

The domestic laying hen is the only non-human animal that spontaneously develops ovarian cancer with a high prevalence. Hens ovulate prolifically, and this has made the hen intuitively appealing as a model of this disease in light of epidemiological evidence that ovulation rate is highly correlated with the risk of human ovarian cancer. As in women, ovarian cancer in the hen is age-related and it is also grossly and histologically similar to that in humans. In both women and hens, the cancer metastasizes to similar tissues with an accumulation of ascites fluid. Some aggressive ovarian cancers in women arise from cells in the oviduct; this is intriguing because ovarian cancers in the hen express an oviductal protein that is normally absent in the ovary

And here:
https://reeis.usda.gov/web/crisproj...in-aging-and-aged-commercial-laying-hens.html

Non Technical Summary
Ovarian adenocarcinoma is the second most prevalent tumor found in laying hens (Goss, 1940). More recently (Alfonso et al., 2005) reported that approximately 45% of all aged commercial laying hens had tumors of ovarian or oviductal origin. Ovarian adenocarcinoma is the fifth leading cause of death in women (Jemal et al., 2007). In spite of the high incidence and severity of the problem ovarian adenocarcinomas are extremely difficult to detect and treat early. This is one of the reasons that there is such a high mortality rate associated with these tumors. Much additional basic and applied scientific discovery is needed to find ways to detect, treat and prevent this condition. The result of additional knowledge in this area could help to avoid pain and suffering in hens and women. The chicken hen is the idea model for this particular spontaneous pathology because of the large number of ovulations that she undergoes during her lifetime. No other animal model is as applicable to the study of this problem in poultry and women.

Flaxseed may help. I fed mine flax seed, but it didn't do much, though I did not do it regularly.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100504124740.htm

In the race to find answers about ovarian cancer, researchers now have something to cluck about. The researchers have been using the chicken as a model to study this deadly disease and have recently discovered that a diet enriched with flaxseed decreases severity of ovarian cancer and increases survival in hens.

 

[speckledhen]

Wasn't Baytril rendered illegal to use on poultry?

I have never seen a hen live very long after a round of bloating, except once. Months, yes, years, no. And I think it was a passing infection that I caught very, very early. She is still with me now at 10 years old, that that is only one hen. All others, and I mean many, many hens, died eventually from their internal issues. Draining the hen is never a permanent solution.

No, they do not go under anesthetic to be drained that I'm aware of-it's just a needle prick, no need for medication for it. We drained several hens periodically, but we no longer do it.

They bloat up again almost 100% of the time. We give a round of antibiotics once and only once. When they bloat up a second time, we do not give any medications, period. Some "un-bloat" on their own, but it always comes back. This is a chronic condition. Yes, they can go on for awhile, bloating then having the bloat dissipate, but it will eventually kill the hen because the underlying issue has not been resolved. Most reproductive issues being genetic/hormone-based, you really cannot fix them, not permanently. Since I quit raising hatchery stock, it rarely ever happens anymore, as I've said several times. Now I have a barn full of ancient hens, LOL.

Some bloat can be from heart or liver issues so those definitely cannot be treated. And you cannot tell which it is from looking/examining the hen yourself.

 

[speckledhen]

I'm sorry to everyone who has lost a chicken(s) to this condition. It is so horrible to see your feathered friends go through this. This web site has been very informative to me and luckily up until this point it was never for the need of "diagnosing" ailments

Just curious if anyone has seen a chicken displaying signs of reproductive issues (i.e. pumping tail end, passing a rubbery egg membrane with "cooked" yolk in stools, and walking like a penquin) that was not fatal if it wasn't proceeded immediately by normal egg laying. Didn't know if it was possible for a chicken to get a bacterial infection and have abdomen swelling as a result which in turn caused issues walking and labored breathing due to swelling.

If a chicken shows signs of egg passing issues then passes the egg but has an infection as a result, would it take several days for the hen to start reproducing eggs again (if ever) since the body was in shock and trying to fight the infection (provided the infection clears and abdominal swelling decreases). I understand that when chickens start having internal egg laying it is usually an ongoing problem that has the habit of rearing its ugly head again.

You've described basically two different things, to help folks not familiar with all this. Egg binding makes a hen walk like a penguin and she still has a chance to pass the egg. It can kill a hen if it isn't removed somehow or cause a prolapse from straining. It will not necessarily cause an infection because it really either kills the hen or you get it out, though if it breaks inside, it may start infection. But, you know it's happened and give antibiotics to stave it off, hopefully.

Internal laying and/or egg yolk peritonitis is completely different. The eggs are either dropped into the abdomen so they cannot be laid or they are basically backed up into the oviduct, causing an ecoli infection and blocking the tract off. Ecoli infections of the oviduct (salpingitis) can be caused by a loose cloaca that sucks feces back into the oviduct, many times in older hens. But, egg binding can usually be remedied by getting that egg out if it's close enough to the end and not just completely stuck sideways.

You have a chance to fix egg binding. You do not have a chance to fix internal laying with anything other than a hysterectomy, which she probably won't survive because by the time you know what's going on, or suspect it, it's far advanced.

Hens who are internally laying will not produce an egg for you anymore. I had only one who did after a bloating period and draining, one time she laid after seeming to recover, but she bloated again and again and eventually died (Ivy). Her oviduct was not completely blocked off, though.

 

[speckledhen]

Kathy, that came from her abdomen. The needle went in a couple inches away from her vent area, on her side, near the rear, down on the most rounded part of her bloated tummy.

 

[easttxchick]

Thank you for posting this, Cynthia.
I'm sure it will be very helpful to many people-I have seen several cases of this posted here lately.
So sorry you are dealing with it and so very sorry you lost your beautiful Ivy.

 

[speckledhen]

Olivia is still with us. I brought her inside and sat on the couch with her on my lap for awhile today. Her abdomen is humongous so we drained her again, this time another 221 cc of yellowish fluid from her. She easily has that much more, but we were unable to get the suction on the syringe to easily draw anymore out. Of course, it won't matter in the end, but I hate to see her almost dragging her tummy on the ground. She is eating well and drinking and can still go up the ramp into the coop, albeit, with some difficulty. Now, her sister, Tux, is showing signs of internal laying, sadly.