d'Uccle color genetics

[lilcrow]

Even though there is already a thread devoted to the love and admiration of the d'Uccle in this area, it hasn't actually focused specifically on the genetics and science of the breeding of the various varieties of the d'Uccle. It is our hope that this thread might be a serious forum for the discussion of the proper breeding of the d'Uccle with an eye toward improvement of type and color.
Pictures are welcome, but mostly to exemplify what you're breeding. We would appreciate it if you would limit your discussion to genetics, color, type, disposition, and breeding. That is not to say that we want this to be a totally dry and lifeless forum, but just our desire to avoid slipping into pet stories which is all too easy to do with these sweet birds.
If anyone that is interested in this topic has a better way of stating this or something to add, take away, or otherwise, PLEASE feel free to do so.

 

[TurtleFeathers]

All those letters confuse me as well. My history is with parrots, so I get which genes are recessive, which are sex linked, etc.... But I have NO CLUE when it comes to alleles, loci, and so forth. I just know "what to what equals what". And the fact that parrot sex linked genes involve the male and not the female (as in chickens) really threw me for a loop!

If you think of it as "colors" and "patterns" this genetic thing becomes a bit easier if you don't understand all the letters.

Mille Fleur is a pattern, and the pattern is pied/mottled.

Lavender is not quite a color - its a color DILUTER. It doesn't add color, it takes it away.

Add the lavender gene to the mille fleur pattern, and you have porcelain. The gold background color in mille fleur dilutes to become straw colored, and the black dilutes to become lavender colored.

Lavender doesn't affect white. White is not technically a color either - its a color "blocker" or "cover upper". Where there is blocked color or covered up color, it cannot be visually diluted.

Now, in the parrot world, we have "visuals" and "splits". Visuals are just that - they are "visual" for that color, meaning you can SEE it. Splits CARRY a color, and you cannot see it.

As for the mode of inheritance, lavender and pied/mottled are both "recessive" genes. Recessive genes must come from BOTH parents to become visual in the chicks. If it only comes from one parent, the chicks will inherit one copy from the visual parent and will be a carrier (aka be "split to" it). And recessive genes have nothing to do with the sexes of the parents.

So, if you breed a visual mille fleur to a visual mille fleur, one pied/mottled gene comes from mom, one comes from dad, and the chicks inherit both of them and will be visual mille fleur. Same thing with lavender - lavender x lavender = lavender.

But lavender (color diluter) and mille fleur (pattern) are two separate entities. One does not equal the other and they are totally unrelated.

So it stands to reason that when one parent is a mille fleur and one parent is a lavender, the chicks will inherit one lavender gene from the lavender parent, and one pied/mottled gene from the mille fleur parent. They need two copies of EACH of these genes to be visual. And since they only inherited one copy of each, they will be carriers of each (aka "split to" each) - and without TWO copies of EACH of those genes, their color will revert to black. SO.... Mille fleur x lavender = black split to pied/mottled AND lavender.

On the other hand, if a mille fleur (pied/mottled pattern only) is bred to a porcelain (pied/mottled pattern AND dilute color) the chicks will inherit one pied/mottled gene from one parent, and the pied/mottled gene AND the dilute gene (lavender) from the other. So they will get TWO pied/mottled genes and ONE dilute or lavender gene - there by making them visual mille fleur split to lavender.

But since a porcelain is a visual lavender mille fleur (it has the visually diluted color AND the visually pied/mottled pattern), and a lavender only has the diluted color (and NOT the pattern), you cannot expect anything but lavenders if you breed them together. One parent contributes a lavender gene, and one parent contributes a lavender gene AND a pied/mottled gene, therefore the chicks will inherit TWO lavender genes (visual) and ONE pied/mottled gene (split). In other words, the chicks will be lavender split to pied/mottled.

If wegotchickens got a black chick from a lavender x porcelain breeding, then something is wrong. One of the parents is not a visual lavender or visual pied/mottled.

Jeeze, my head is spinning - hope y'all's aren't...

 

[WVduckchick]

I can’t seem to find a description or any pictures of an ideal “Golden Neck” d’uccle rooster. I have a few and really need to get rid of one or two, but I’m not sure which specimens would be best to keep!

Ideas, opinions?
Just based on color at the moment, I’d also have to evaluate beard, comb, shape, etc, etc, but just color-wise/pattern, who do you like best?

1)

2)

3)

4)

5)

4 And 3 again

1 again

 

[tadkerson]

Quote:
If you crossed a porcelain roo with lavender hens, all of the chicks should be lavender. You should not have produced a black chick.

Is it possible that one of your hens is blue and not lavender?

It would not be unusual for the chicks from the cross to be a solid color. The birds did not have a chance to put on their adult plumage, as they matured you may have seen more color (not black) appear in their feathers. .

A bird can not get a triple does of the lavender gene. A chicken only inherits one lavender gene from each parent.

If the mortality problem is genetic in nature, chances are the father would be the carrier of a recessive sex linked gene that is causing the death.

I would go ahead and hatch some more chicks and see what happens. If the offspring have a high mortality rate, you know the problem is due to genetics.


Tim

 

[The Moonshiner]

The self blue is totally different then the porcelain.
Self blue is lavender on extended black.
Porcelain is lavender on MF. MF should be on Wheaton. But it has other genes in play to complete the pattern. The buff color, Columbian pattern, mottled, etc.
A lot of genes involved are recessive so they need a copy from both parents.they won't get copies from the self blues so they won't get the MF or porcelain pattern. They will get one copy so that's why I suspect leakage. Extended black covers a lot but a lot of times yes other colors or parts of patterns leak through. The chicks will be carrying recessive genes sight unseen so if you ever want them back to pure self blues it will be hard to breed out those recessive genes.
To get back to MC or porcelain you have to get all genes involves back to the offspring. When dealing with a more complex pattern like MF there a lot of genes that you have to get in a chick to be correct. That's what I mean by a mess.
Just a lot of genes to deal with with that cross.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Mottled and black are the same bird with the exception of mottled carrying two mottled genes.
Problem is they are worlds apart from mille fleur.
Black/mottled should be silver based. MF are gold based. MF should be partridge and B/M need to be extended black. MF also carry columbian genes as well.
You'll need to cross in the silver base and the extended black. At the same time breeding out the gold base, the partridge, the columbian genes and the mottled genes for the black.
It will take a ton of chicks and a few generations to get there.
With blacks and mottled already available imo it would be much wiser to secure them from somewhere then to try and make them.
Even if it takes a couple years to find them you'd still come out ahead time wise and a ton less work and throw away chicks.

 

[boskelli1571]

Is it possible to breed two other bantams and get a mille fleur d'uccle?
I have an OEG Crele Bantam Rooster, and in the same cage I have a couple of Bantam Buff Brahma hens... I got this hen in the hatched egg

No. You may get OEG bantams or Brahma bantams but you will not get D'Uccles. Barbu D'Uccles are a specific breed of true bantams.

 

[DuckDuckGooseMum]

I'm pretty new to the d'uccle breed myself, but I'd like to add to discussion as a reference point for many questions I have been reading in this thread. d'uccle are a true bantam breed.
The golden rule of breeding is to begin with the best stock you can find & afford. You can't build a Porche from a beat up Chevy. You will never be able to take cross breed and make it pure. You can't begin with poor stock and breed good stock from them. If breeding is your goal, or you are interested in showing your birds, do not waste time & money on inferior birds. Start with good, purebred, APA breed standard correct birds with the traits you want to perpetuate. Once you have some good breeding pairs in the colors you're seeking then you can begin to hatch offspring. Keep your best looking birds to breed again and continue to improve upon what you have.
It's troubling to hear people asking for tricks to enhance traits their birds lack. Judges will know what you're up to and you will rightfully be disqualified from competition. Buyers will be back with chicks that were sold under false pretenses and you will quickly get a reputation for dishonesty. If I even think there's a slight possibility of a cross or inferiority I will charge less and advertise accordingly. No one appreciates buying something that's not what they expected it to be. When people are irresponsible with the health and breeding of their birds it eventually affects many people. Poor breeding practices hurt the breed you care about in the long term.
Regardless of whether you intend to breed pets or show stock, always breed your best birds. Aquaint yourself with the breed standards and history of the birds you keep & admire and please always be honest when you sell.

 

[WVduckchick]

Dose anyone know if this pairing causes lethal genes

Brown Red Japanese x Millie Fleur = this…. My project D’UCCLES Brown Red Mottled D’Uccles View attachment 3138225View attachment 3138227View attachment 3138228
So I was wondering if breeding these 3 caused a lethal gene. I ask this because I put around 8 eggs in the incubator, 2 died as a small feathered embryo which is can happen some times, but I’ve had 3 fully developed, internally pipe and die. So far 2 have hatched and 3 are do to hatch but don’t look great. Is this caused be the lethal Japanese gene or something else?

Cute project!

I can’t answer your question, but thought I’d share this site on d’uccle genetics,
http://www.edelras.nl/belgians/genetics.htm#breedcombo

I’d also suggest posting on a Japanese thread (if you haven’t yet).

My thinking is that I’d choose a long legged Japanese rooster without the creeper gene, if possible. But even if the sire is carrying the gene, you should still get some percentage that would be able to hatch. Good luck!

 

[Egg Snatcher]

Cute project!

I can’t answer your question, but thought I’d share this site on d’uccle genetics,
http://www.edelras.nl/belgians/genetics.htm#breedcombo

I’d also suggest posting on a Japanese thread (if you haven’t yet).

My thinking is that I’d choose a long legged Japanese rooster without the creeper gene, if possible. But even if the sire is carrying the gene, you should still get some percentage that would be able to hatch. Good luck!

Thanks