Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[YdogsflY]

That depends. The rift between backyard/exhibition poultry and commercial poultry widened beginning in the 1940s. Since then, the genepools are different. Even between commercial strains of the same type, there can be differences in nutrient requirements. It would take quite a while to genetically select backyard birds to perform like commercial birds. Commercial birds have an 80+ year head start. To be honest, for the most part, backyard/exhibition birds are not as productive now as they were 80 years ago. Many of the additives and products mentioned are available only to feed producers, and on many cases, need specialised equipment to utilize. Alltech is a company that develops and supplies products to feed producers. If you like a product, look for a product the includes that. I am familiar with Alltech, as well as other feed additive companies.

I'll bite.

I do not dispute much of what you say. The Genepools have divided a bunch. Be it hatchery (heritage) birds or commercial layers/broiler. It is my business to know about the production end of poultry.


The Alltech stuff is all marketing. I use a mineral pack in my feed that has all the stuff they need. Broilers, ducks, layers, turkey, show/heritage, all get the same feed. I add fish meal here and there to up the protein where needed, but the rest is provided from the mineral pack tha tis not Alltech, but is the same stuff.

Where I do differ is in the "To be honest, for the most part, backyard/exhibition birds are not as productive now as they were 80 years ago."

While that is true for the most part, there is still some productive poultry out there that looks the part. There are people around that do not want a cornish x. So I have New Hampshires that meat their needs (pun intended) that still lay eggs. Obviously they cannot compete with the commercial breeds, but they bring in more profit per bird because of the price premium.

 

[gojira]

I'll bite.

I do not dispute much of what you say. The Genepools have divided a bunch. Be it hatchery (heritage) birds or commercial layers/broiler. It is my business to know about the production end of poultry.


The Alltech stuff is all marketing. I use a mineral pack in my feed that has all the stuff they need. Broilers, ducks, layers, turkey, show/heritage, all get the same feed. I add fish meal here and there to up the protein where needed, but the rest is provided from the mineral pack tha tis not Alltech, but is the same stuff.

Where I do differ is in the "To be honest, for the most part, backyard/exhibition birds are not as productive now as they were 80 years ago."

While that is true for the most part, there is still some productive poultry out there that looks the part. There are people around that do not want a cornish x. So I have New Hampshires that meat their needs (pun intended) that still lay eggs. Obviously they cannot compete with the commercial breeds, but they bring in more profit per bird because of the price premium.

The APA (and Livestock Conservancy, Sustainable Poultry Network, etc.) stuff is all marketing, and much misinformation. Alltech does a lot of research, and has a lot of independent research from Universities. If your mineral pack has everything all of those species need, it contains more than minerals. Mineral requirements change with age, are different for different species, etc. So your mineral pack is made from microbial fermentation?

Very few exhibition lines are truly productive. Some breeders make claims that are based on ignorance or belief in fairy tales, or outright misleading people to sell birds. Or maybe they have low expectations.

What is the egg production of your New Hampshires? What is their live weight at 12 weeks? What is their dressed weight at 12 weeks? What is their feed conversion?

 

[YdogsflY]

The APA (and Livestock Conservancy, Sustainable Poultry Network, etc.) stuff is all marketing, and much misinformation. Alltech does a lot of research, and has a lot of independent research from Universities. If your mineral pack has everything all of those species need, it contains more than minerals. Mineral requirements change with age, are different for different species, etc. So your mineral pack is made from microbial fermentation?

Very few exhibition lines are truly productive. Some breeders make claims that are based on ignorance or belief in fairy tales, or outright misleading people to sell birds. Or maybe they have low expectations.

What is the egg production of your New Hampshires? What is their live weight at 12 weeks? What is their dressed weight at 12 weeks? What is their feed conversion?

I typed a bunch in response and realized I shouldn't.

You love to argue semantics and act obtuse toward others explanations. You know what I said and you know "mineral PAck" means more than just that.

 

[gojira]

I typed a bunch in response and realized I shouldn't.

You love to argue semantics and act obtuse toward others explanations. You know what I said and you know "mineral PAck" means more than just that.

I don't argue semantics, I call out lies and misinformation. If you have another explanation that has a basis in fact, I am all for it. But, if you want to rehash 80 year old slick sales pitches, I will call it as I see it. A "mineral pack" to anyone who knows anything means a pack of minerals. A ration contains much more than minerals, and no one calls a ration a mineral pack. And no one ration could exactly meet the needs of all of those species, lifestages, etc.

So I guess I was right that your New Hampshires are no more productive than New Hampshires were 80 years ago. If one follows the teachings of APA, Livestock Conservancy, Sustainable Poultry Network, etc., no progress will be made in regards to production, yet they mislead people to think that standards have anything to do with production.

Earlier you mentioned a premium. Premium for what? I don't pay a premium for something I have to buy more of. I can eat a 4 lbs. bird (dressed) at one sitting, with sides.

 

[3riverschick]

Gojira ,if you've been reading ezines "all about feed and "poultry world" and "Biomin", then you understand the tremendous advances in research taking place worldwide in the commercial poultry industry . a great majority of it has to do with the fact they're trying to understand how to raise poultry without antibiotics. most of the rest of it has to do with dealing with myotoxins and vaccination protocols. there's also research dealing with egg production etc etc etc.
My point is sometimes it's not necessary to do the research onesself. however it is very helpful to correctly collate the research being done by others. This is one of the big challenges now in the world wide commercial poultry industry. There is so much testing and so many hypotheses being tried out, out there . the trick is to find a way to put them in together correctly so that a protocol forms a unified field of protection and enhancement for the bird .
Protocols are slowly coming together world wide as the researchers throw out the chaff and find the kernels of value that they can use.
In the end , I truly believe from 20 years of private research in the matter of neonate Health , that the answers will be found from day 17 of incubation through the end of day 12 of life . those are the golden hours that I think is where our answers lay. and it won't matter whether this is a Heritage breed, an ancient breed ,or a modern Broiler .
Best ,
Karen

 

[gojira]

Gojira ,if you've been reading ezines "all about feed and "poultry world" and "Biomin", then you understand the tremendous advances in research taking place worldwide in the commercial poultry industry . a great majority of it has to do with the fact they're trying to understand how to raise poultry without antibiotics. most of the rest of it has to do with dealing with myotoxins and vaccination protocols. there's also research dealing with egg production etc etc etc.
My point is sometimes it's not necessary to do the research onesself. however it is very helpful to correctly collate the research being done by others. This is one of the big challenges now in the world wide commercial poultry industry. There is so much testing and so many hypotheses being tried out, out there . the trick is to find a way to put them in together correctly so that a protocol forms a unified field of protection and enhancement for the bird .
Protocols are slowly coming together world wide as the researchers throw out the chaff and find the kernels of value that they can use.
In the end , I truly believe from 20 years of private research in the matter of neonate Health , that the answers will be found from day 17 of incubation through the end of day 12 of life . those are the golden hours that I think is where our answers lay. and it won't matter whether this is a Heritage breed, an ancient breed ,or a modern Broiler .
Best ,
Karen

Another in a very long line of hints: I have done more than read ezines. I know it is not necessary to do the research oneself, but sometimes it takes more than reading an ezine to understand something, and to understand where something fits into the puzzle. It is interesting that you feel reporters know more than researchers.

Your window is broad, but does not cover everything. It may cover one component, but not all. If you had followed these ezines, you would know there are differences between strains, much less types of commercial poultry. That is nothing new, and you can find research going back many decades dealing with this. There are some similarities in the types of poultry, but many differences. One must know and appreciate the differences before one can apply what is true in one type to another.

 

[YdogsflY]

I don't argue semantics, I call out lies and misinformation. If you have another explanation that has a basis in fact, I am all for it. But, if you want to rehash 80 year old slick sales pitches, I will call it as I see it. A "mineral pack" to anyone who knows anything means a pack of minerals. A ration contains much more than minerals, and no one calls a ration a mineral pack. And no one ration could exactly meet the needs of all of those species, lifestages, etc.

So I guess I was right that your New Hampshires are no more productive than New Hampshires were 80 years ago. If one follows the teachings of APA, Livestock Conservancy, Sustainable Poultry Network, etc., no progress will be made in regards to production, yet they mislead people to think that standards have anything to do with production.

Earlier you mentioned a premium. Premium for what? I don't pay a premium for something I have to buy more of. I can eat a 4 lbs. bird (dressed) at one sitting, with sides.

I was under the impression Alltech was a company that supplies minerals for feed rations. If it is more than that, then I would call ignorance on my part, not lies and misinformation.

Just because you feel that no one ration works, it does for me. The Ducks and CornishX are done 6-8 weeks depending on the size the customer wants. The Turkey's do just fine and are done by thanksgiving. Layers lay a lot of eggs. There's usually more than one way to do things.

The NH's are just fine. The layers are for eggs, not the NH's. Ok carcass 16-18 weeks for a non commercial chicken, 4-5 eggs a week. That's ok for me.

I don't really care what you do, don't pay for, or how much you eat. The customers are happy. And just because YOU don't do it, doesn't mean it's wrong or right. I can't eat an entire chicken with sides in one sitting, but more power to ya.

 

[gojira]

I was under the impression Alltech was a company that supplies minerals for feed rations. If it is more than that, then I would call ignorance on my part, not lies and misinformation.

Just because you feel that no one ration works, it does for me. The Ducks and CornishX are done 6-8 weeks depending on the size the customer wants. The Turkey's do just fine and are done by thanksgiving. Layers lay a lot of eggs. There's usually more than one way to do things.

The NH's are just fine. The layers are for eggs, not the NH's. Ok carcass 16-18 weeks for a non commercial chicken, 4-5 eggs a week. That's ok for me.

I don't really care what you do, don't pay for, or how much you eat. The customers are happy. And just because YOU don't do it, doesn't mean it's wrong or right. I can't eat an entire chicken with sides in one sitting, but more power to ya.

Minerals are a small part of what Alltech does. Your comment was that your mineral pack is the same as what Alltech sells, which is not true. And that was not all of the lies and misinformation. You made statements you could not back up, but you were marketing a product, which you seemed to look down Alltech for doing so. I am not necessarily endorsing Alltech, but the truth is the truth.

One can feed one ration, but for optimum performance, it does not work that way. If you are feeding the same ration to chicks and layers/breeders, you are either burning up the kidneys of the chicks, or removing minerals from the bones of the layers/breeders.

Your statement was that your New Hampshires are more productive than New Hampshires from 80 years ago. Now you admit they are not. What layers do you have? What is their production?

Misleading and deceiving people to sell something is wrong, no matter who does or does not do it. Some people don't know enough to know they are being lied to, but it does not make it right to lie to them. It seems people are preying upon uneducated consumers these days, and you seem proud of it.

 

[YdogsflY]

There you go again, twisting my words to fit your abrasive style.

I am not trying to sell anything here. I'm merely stating how I do things and that it works for me. I don't need optimum, I need weights at a certain time. Restaurants want a certain size bird. The calcium is low and oyster shell is provided along with all the pasture that they want. I don't have issues from the feed. predation is the main problem.

What I said was I disagree with you on this comment to a point "To be honest, for the most part, backyard/exhibition birds are not as productive now as they were 80 years ago." The only claim I made was that my NH's were good enough for my customers and I believe there are still some productive poultry out there. So don't put words in my mouth. They are productive imo with carcass and not bad in the egg department. But I don't need 7 eggs a day from them to see productivity.

Preying on people? You mean the people who asked me to raise heritage chickens because they don't want the cornish X? Yeah, I'm such a bad person for giving customers what they want.

As for the rest, I really just don't care about your opinion, nor am I going to explain anymore. I am making a living farming, so..

 

[gojira]

There you go again, twisting my words to fit your abrasive style.

I am not trying to sell anything here. I'm merely stating how I do things and that it works for me. I don't need optimum, I need weights at a certain time. Restaurants want a certain size bird. The calcium is low and oyster shell is provided along with all the pasture that they want. I don't have issues from the feed. predation is the main problem.

What I said was I disagree with you on this comment to a point "To be honest, for the most part, backyard/exhibition birds are not as productive now as they were 80 years ago." The only claim I made was that my NH's were good enough for my customers and I believe there are still some productive poultry out there. So don't put words in my mouth. They are productive imo with carcass and not bad in the egg department. But I don't need 7 eggs a day from them to see productivity.

Preying on people? You mean the people who asked me to raise heritage chickens because they don't want the cornish X? Yeah, I'm such a bad person for giving customers what they want.

As for the rest, I really just don't care about your opinion, nor am I going to explain anymore. I am making a living farming, so..

What have I twisted? You said Alltech was marketing. You said you feed a mineral pack that contained everything your birds needed. You said your mineral pack was the same as Alltech's product. You said some birds were as productive as they were 80 years,ago, offered up your New Hampshires as an example, and then later admitted they were not as productive.

You do not sell poultry, either live or dressed, or eggs? So you deprive your birds of nutrients to get them to a weight at a later time? Why do you feed oyster shell if the mineral pack contains all that they need? You said you fee all birds the same.

My comment was that birds today are not as productive as they were 80 years ago. You disagreed. You offered your New Hampshires as an example, and then admitted they are not as productive as birds 80 years ago. People have different standards. A serama bantam could be considered productive, since you could eat the meat. It takes a long time to produce very little. A bird that lays one egg per year produces. The point was that people have low expectations, and mislead people. If a bird takes longer to reach a certain weight, it is not as productive. If a bird lays fewer eggs per year, it is less productive. That is comparing standard bred birds to standard bred birds. You can forget it if you compare commercial birds.

I hope your customers become educated one day. In the meantime, you should be honest with them.