Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[gojira]

I wasn't referring to any one post in particular as I didn't read them all, just some of the last posts or two. Yes, breeding to SOP is breeding for production. Production refers to meat as well as egg production. A Leghorn's body and other egg laying breeds are built for egg production and not meat. A Cornish body is built for meat and not eggs. A dual purpose bird is built for something in between the two. That said, some dual purpose birds lean toward meat, i.e. NH, Buckeyes, whereas others lean to egg more, RIR. Look at their backgrounds too. I am also not saying a Buckeye or NH shouldn't be a good egg layer, but they aren't a Leghorn and should be bred to be built like one.
Have you seen the best NH lately? They are nice and would compete with those of the past. I have seen and handled them. Well built. Same with Buckeyes.

Breeding to the SOP is NOT breeding for production. If it were, commercial companies would be using the SOP, not using performance criteria. Look at birds that are the most productive, and you will find they do not adhere to the SOP for their respective breed. Breeding to the SOP is breeding for aesthetics. The rest is marketing and myths. What do you consider "built for egg production"? Are you just meaning they have less muscle mass so that they can channel their energy into egg production instead of muscle development and maintenance?

The best New Hampshires in what respect? At conformation shows? Meat production? Egg production? I assume you mean the birds at conformation shows. Only someone with limited experience would say the current conformation birds compare to production birds of 80 years ago. Plus, the birds that are typically shown are usually 10 months or older. New Hampshires were bred for rapid growth and early maturity, which is difficult to judge in the showroom. Plus, many of the birds shown in conformation do not match the standard in several ways, including weight.

 

[cgmccary]

Breeding to the SOP is NOT breeding for production. If it were, commercial companies would be using the SOP, not using performance criteria. Look at birds that are the most productive, and you will find they do not adhere to the SOP for their respective breed. Breeding to the SOP is breeding for aesthetics. The rest is marketing and myths. What do you consider "built for egg production"? Are you just meaning they have less muscle mass so that they can channel their energy into egg production instead of muscle development and maintenance?

The best New Hampshires in what respect? At conformation shows? Meat production? Egg production? I assume you mean the birds at conformation shows. Only someone with limited experience would say the current conformation birds compare to production birds of 80 years ago. Plus, the birds that are typically shown are usually 10 months or older. New Hampshires were bred for rapid growth and early maturity, which is difficult to judge in the showroom. Plus, many of the birds shown in conformation do not match the standard in several ways, including weight.

I could not disagree more. The SOP was written at a time when standard bred poultry was the commercial industry, America's food. Read the first 39 pages of the SOP, look at Figures 1,2,39, 40,41 (Page 13-15 "Instructions to Judges, For Economic Qualities of Standard-Bred Fowls, e.g. about head, a large heart girth) and you will see the emphasis on type. Read "Judging for Production" by Rice; APA judges will pick a bird with good type over just a bag of feathers every day of the week. If you breed by the Standard, all of it, including the most important parts (the type and body which accounts for 2/3 the points awarded), then you are breeding for economic value (production). You win at shows by having proper type. The other things, feather & color only differentiate fowl at the top of the show when they have to parse the minute detail. The quality of the feathers do tell you a lot about the health and vigor of your fowl though.

I was referring to the best New Hampshires by the Standard of Perfection, the description of the breed, which if bred accodingly, then the bird fulfills its dual purpose role, meat and eggs. The SOP calls for a 8.5/ 7.5 C/K and a 6.5/ 5.5 H/P for the NH. I would dare say that the NH I see at the shows very much are these sizes and some a little more.

I raise my birds for meat and eggs. I eat no other chicken other than my own. I breed by the SOP to insure I get the dual qualities of my fowl, for meat and eggs. Secondly, I also show my birds. I literally catch them from the yard, clean their feet, wipe off the dirt and show them. These are dual purpose farm fowl first.

Not true about birds being 10 months and older. I showed La Fleche at 6 months old at the Bath show this past year and I like my Buckeyes to be 7-9 months old. My La Fleche show well at 8 months old (which for a La Fleche, a slow growing breed, is slaughter age). Buckeyes reach slaughter weight at about 16-18 weeks of age and the ones shown are the best weight at this age if not earlier. The birds making it to the show reached their weights achieveing best rates of growth, type, etc. You are misinformed about show quality large fowl.

 

[gojira]

I could not disagree more. The SOP was written at a time when standard bred poultry was the commercial industry, America's food. Read the first 39 pages of the SOP, look at Figures 1,2,39, 40,41 (Page 13-15 "Instructions to Judges, For Economic Qualities of Standard-Bred Fowls, e.g. about head, a large heart girth) and you will see the emphasis on type. Read "Judging for Production" by Rice; APA judges will pick a bird with good type over just a bag of feathers every day of the week. If you breed by the Standard, all of it, including the most important parts (the type and body which accounts for 2/3 the points awarded), then you are breeding for economic value (production). You win at shows by having proper type. The other things, feather & color only differentiate fowl at the top of the show when they have to parse the minute detail. The quality of the feathers do tell you a lot about the health and vigor of your fowl though.

I was referring to the best New Hampshires by the Standard of Perfection, the description of the breed, which if bred accodingly, then the bird fulfills its dual purpose role, meat and eggs. The SOP calls for a 8.5/ 7.5 C/K and a 6.5/ 5.5 H/P for the NH. I would dare say that the NH I see at the shows very much are these sizes and some a little more.

I raise my birds for meat and eggs. I eat no other chicken other than my own. I breed by the SOP to insure I get the dual qualities of my fowl, for meat and eggs. Secondly, I also show my birds. I literally catch them from the yard, clean their feet, wipe off the dirt and show them. These are dual purpose farm fowl first.

Not true about birds being 10 months and older. I showed La Fleche at 6 months old at the Bath show this past year and I like my Buckeyes to be 7-9 months old. My La Fleche show well at 8 months old (which for a La Fleche, a slow growing breed, is slaughter age). Buckeyes reach slaughter weight at about 16-18 weeks of age and the ones shown are the best weight at this age if not earlier. The birds making it to the show reached their weights achieveing best rates of growth, type, etc. You are misinformed about show quality large fowl.

I think you need more experience. I have read the books you mention, but i also have read more, and have decades of hands on experience. The SOP contains a lot of inaccurate information, particularly in the first 39 pages, that has not been corrected from years gone by. You are going on what you read in a few books, and outdated ones at that, not reality. Yes, standard bred birds were the commercial birds 100+ years ago. Some people realized the SOP had nothing to do with production, broke away, and that is why the most productive birds are not involved in the APA today, and have not been for nearly 100 years. If you were correct, the most productive birds would be in the APA. If you breed for the standard, you are breeding for aesthetics, not production. APA judges look at conformation. They are not judging production. My son has Silver Spangled Hamburgs from a well known line, and they do not lay well, despite being bred to the SOP for around 80 years by one man.

I agree the New Hampshires being shown are larger than the standard, and they are not bred according to the standard, as the standard calls for a specific weight. For your argument, one would need to look at birds bred to the SOP to begin with, then go from there. Even so, they would not have been considered productive compared to birds 80 years ago. Eighty years ago, New Hampshires were slaughtered around 12 weeks, so 16-18 weeks is going backwards. I was talking about New Hampshire's, not other breeds. Some breeds, like Asiatics, do not show well until older. I showed some 6 month olds (not New Hampshire's, as I don't have any) in January, but they were not finished. I am not misinformed about Show Quality Large Fowl, as I have them in a few breeds. You seem to be misinformed about poultry in general, and seem to have no desire to overcome that. I do know the difference between breeding for conformation (SOP), and breeding for production, and one can have both, but not by just going by the former.

 

[cgmccary]

I only said some of the NH exceed the weight. Most are spot on with their weight and I don't see any in the shows underweight. With large fowl, you have to be mindful of birds losing size.

I said my Buckeyes were 16-18 weeks old. (Where did I say NHs at 16-18 weeks?-- I said Buckeyes.) I don't raise NHs and never have. Buckeyes should not be as fast growing as NHs FYI.

Judges are judging by body type which has everything to do with production.

I completely disagree about breeding to the SOP. You obviously have not read the first 39 pages and choose to ignore it. We can agree to disagree.

 

[YdogsflY]

I only said some of the NH exceed the weight. Most are spot on with their weight and I don't see any in the shows underweight. With large fowl, you have to be mindful of birds losing size.

I said my Buckeyes were 16-18 weeks old. (Where did I say NHs at 16-18 weeks?-- I said Buckeyes.) I don't raise NHs and never have. Buckeyes should not be as fast growing as NHs FYI.

Judges are judging by body type which has everything to do with production.

I completely disagree about breeding to the SOP. You obviously have not read the first 39 pages and choose to ignore it. We can agree to disagree.

He's hung up on my comment about butchering my New Hamps at 16-18 weeks. I provided no weights or reasoning as to why that is. Yet my birds must suck because I choose to butcher them after 12 weeks.

I normally shoot for 16 because that is what my customers asked for to meet the "Heritage" criteria. 17-18 weeks sometimes because other obligations arise and we can't get to them at 16 weeks sometimes.

I have butchered many at 12 weeks and earlier over the years. When it comes to our breeders culling for early maturity is easily done. I also try to stay within the confines of the SOP. They are far from perfect, but they do have some good qualities. Hatching more in the spring instead of smaller batches through the year would help moving forward at a faster pace. We're just not diehards for exhibition yet. If my daughter takes a big liking to the fancy i will certainly change some things up for them.

 

[cgmccary]

He's hung up on my comment about butchering my New Hamps at 16-18 weeks. I provided no weights or reasoning as to why that is. Yet my birds must suck because I choose to butcher them after 12 weeks.

I normally shoot for 16 because that is what my customers asked for to meet the "Heritage" criteria. 17-18 weeks sometimes because other obligations arise and we can't get to them at 16 weeks sometimes.

I have butchered many at 12 weeks and earlier over the years. When it comes to our breeders culling for early maturity is easily done. I also try to stay within the confines of the SOP. They are far from perfect, but they do have some good qualities. Hatching more in the spring instead of smaller batches through the year would help moving forward at a faster pace. We're just not diehards for exhibition yet. If my daughter takes a big liking to the fancy i will certainly change some things up for them.

Some people I know butcher later for more flavor to the meat. Have I butchered my birds earlier? Yes, I have butchered both my breeds at 14 weeks for use as fryers. Do we want our birds to mature faster? No. That is the whole point. If we wanted to eat a fast growing chicken, the fastest, we'd go to the grocery store. I have a buddy who butchers his Buckeyes no earlier than 24 weeks. He could do it much earlier but prefers the taste of the bird at that age.

 

[YdogsflY]

Some people I know butcher later for more flavor to the meat. Have I butchered my birds earlier? Yes, I have butchered both my breeds at 14 weeks for use as fryers. Do we want our birds to mature faster? No. That is the whole point. If we wanted to eat a fast growing chicken, the fastest, we'd go to the grocery store. I have a buddy who butchers his Buckeyes no earlier than 24 weeks. He could do it much earlier but prefers the taste of the bird at that age.

Oh yeah. For our own freezer we like the older birds. Late culls we were holding onto for breeding and the 2yo laying hens. The Wife likes the fowl for broth and chicken salad. Make pretty good pot pie to.

 

[gojira]

I only said some of the NH exceed the weight. Most are spot on with their weight and I don't see any in the shows underweight. With large fowl, you have to be mindful of birds losing size.

I said my Buckeyes were 16-18 weeks old. (Where did I say NHs at 16-18 weeks?-- I said Buckeyes.) I don't raise NHs and never have. Buckeyes should not be as fast growing as NHs FYI.

Judges are judging by body type which has everything to do with production.

I completely disagree about breeding to the SOP. You obviously have not read the first 39 pages and choose to ignore it. We can agree to disagree.

Large Fowl have lost more than size over the years. That has been the point, but you refuse to see it.

The discussion has involved New Hampshires. I am not pulling them out of nowhere. New Hampshires were selected from the beginning for fast growth and early maturity. That has been lost.

Body type has nothing to do with production, and that is easy to figure out. So, if I take the most productive Single Comb White Leghorn I can find, she should win at least her variety, but most likely go much higher, since her productivity would be from her type, not from her physiology, like knowledgeable people would state? What about a White Plymouth Rock? A commercial Single Comb White Leghorn has many features that the APA would say mean lack of production, yet, she outlays the APA version, which you say "looks" like she is productive. I could put a Yugo engine in a Ferrari, and the car eould look nice, but the performance would be lacking. Looks aren't everything. I do show poultry, as does my son, but we realize the extent of that. Without selecting for production, it will wane if we are just selecting birds according to the Standard.

 

[gojira]

He's hung up on my comment about butchering my New Hamps at 16-18 weeks. I provided no weights or reasoning as to why that is. Yet my birds must suck because I choose to butcher them after 12 weeks.

I normally shoot for 16 because that is what my customers asked for to meet the "Heritage" criteria. 17-18 weeks sometimes because other obligations arise and we can't get to them at 16 weeks sometimes.

I have butchered many at 12 weeks and earlier over the years. When it comes to our breeders culling for early maturity is easily done. I also try to stay within the confines of the SOP. They are far from perfect, but they do have some good qualities. Hatching more in the spring instead of smaller batches through the year would help moving forward at a faster pace. We're just not diehards for exhibition yet. If my daughter takes a big liking to the fancy i will certainly change some things up for them.

I am aware that The Livestock Conservancy said a bird had to be slaughtered at 16+ weeks of age to be considered "Heritage". Considering that was late compared to the time period people seem to refer to when they think of "Heritage", that does not make much sense. Many people try to improve things, not go backwards.

 

[YdogsflY]

I was unaware that The Livestock Conservancy said a bird had to be slaughtered at 16 to 18 weeks of age to be considered "Heritage". Considering that was late compared to the time period people seem to refer to when they think of "Heritage".

I kinda think the age restriction is a bit silly, but it is what it is. If you think about it, the Delaware was known for 12 weeks to market weight. That was it's job before the chicken of tomorrow stuff played out and a big reason it was so popular.

I guess most of the breeds are slower maturing though and I shouldn't expect the definition to be based on just a few breeds that are young enough to may or may not classify as "heritage".

At least at 16 weeks the meat is still pretty tender. Proper cooking techniques certainly help after that point.