Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[Fred's Hens]

I don't believe that all heritage lines, of a given breed, are identical. If the birds, say Rocks or Reds or what have you, have been bred well, very well, very close to the standard, but with an emphasis by a certain keeper/breeder of that line with an eye to this or that, then after 10 or 20 years? That's what those birds become. If they were bred for frame and meat? The keeper of that line should be able to demonstrate good quality in that emphasis. If they were selected for quick feathering, a usual sign of good laying, and laying records kept carefully? A given line can easily lay 20-30 eggs more than another line where such was not the emphasis. Would this difference push someone toward the "Smith" line as opposed to the "Jones" line?

Dunno. Quite possibly. Different strokes for different folks. I don't believe it wrong for a prospective buyer to ask these questions of a breeder.

 

[Arielle]

I don't believe that all heritage lines, of a given breed, are identical. If the birds, say Rocks or Reds or what have you, have been bred well, very well, very close to the standard, but with an emphasis by a certain keeper/breeder of that line with an eye to this or that, then after 10 or 20 years? That's what those birds become. If they were bred for frame and meat? The keeper of that line should be able to demonstrate good quality in that emphasis. If they were selected for quick feathering, a usual sign of good laying, and laying records kept carefully? A given line can easily lay 20-30 eggs more than another line where such was not the emphasis. Would this difference push someone toward the "Smith" line as opposed to the "Jones" line?

Dunno. Quite possibly. Different strokes for different folks. I don't believe it wrong for a prospective buyer to ask these questions of a breeder.

I have asked breeders such questions. I am amazed by those that are very frank and provide a less than stellar description but with honesty. Love it. THen I encounter the wiggler that worms around my questions and leaves me to guess. That is frustrating. I like knowing what I"m starting with. Not looking for perfect, looking for the facts, just t he facts. Perfection rarely exists.

 

[gjensen]

My experience with these New Hamps that I have is that the females look pretty adult at 5 months, that is the females. The males look like they will take close to a year before they look mature, but at 6 month the males were at 9 lbs which is over the SOP weight. These came from kathyinmo in a roundabout way. Should they mature faster than that. I was impressed with these, but I don't know what your expectations are in terms of growth rate.

Walt

Walt, I think a lot of my New Hampshires. I used New Hampshires as an example, because I am generally familiar with them.

Still, my slower growing males are not considered. The pullets that come on earlier are given a little more room for error. That is just the way I think.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

What I did was to locate some Cornish from show breeders, since those I got from a hatchery failed to even come close to having the meat qualities I was looking for, and commenced breeding them for meat with an eye aimed towards the SOP. Show quality and the original production qualities are not opposites, but breeding only only for one or the other may have negative effects on a breed. I doubt there are many show breeders that are ignoring egg count or other production qualities completely on their layer or dual purpose bird, and the SOP does define the shape and weight on them, but hatcheries cannot afford to put much emphasis on type and weights and sell chicks at the price they sell them at.

This is recisely where I was going. It's about our selection on the proper birds. I bet many strains that may not be currently as productive as one would hope have ancestors that were quite homestead worthy, but productive qualities are about every single generation. It's our selection that carries them forward.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

If you're running a mini egg production facility? You'd probably not be happy about "only" getting 3 or 4 eggs per week, per hen. It's all about what you want out of all this.

I concur. We were making a modest profit on our Ancona eggs when egg production played a key role in what we were doing. Dorking eggs, well the egg production paid for the meat production.

I agree with the points concerning production, and the birds that we have. I would like to add, that I want to be ever mindful of what the breed should be. I know this is can be disputed, but a NH is known for certain traits outside of their appearance. I slow maturing NH is not a NH in my opinion. To me that is simple. NHs were popular because they were quick to feather out, and filled out early. To me, that means they should now. Not all breeds are the same in this respect.
I find that the rate of lay with some of these strains are not as much of a problem as length of lay. I will use the NHs again. If the pullets get laying before the days get too short, then they lay better through the winter. If a hen molts later than the rest, she lays a bit longer. Personally, I want my pullets laying, before my hens molt.
A little improvement in both directions, mean 20 more eggs per year. You can take a 160 egg strain and get them to 180 with selection on two simple points. I understand and agree when it is said that our birds are not production birds, but I do not want to use that as a reason to settle for poor performance. My NHs should be decent layers, and be fast maturing birds.
I guess that I want it all.

This is exactly where I was going. If one has NHs that are sub-standard, my bent would be to get them to standard conformation and then press on toward productive qualities, but NHs are available in strains that meet the SOP; so, that's where I'd begin.

My experience with these New Hamps that I have is that the females look pretty adult at 5 months, that is the females. The males look like they will take close to a year before they look mature, but at 6 month the males were at 9 lbs which is over the SOP weight. These came from kathyinmo in a roundabout way. Should they mature faster than that. I was impressed with these, but I don't know what your expectations are in terms of growth rate.

Walt

I don't know that their supposed to be finished early so much as meaty early, and it sounds like their doing OK. I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the goals for them were 16wk roasters, probably dressing out around 3 1/2.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I don't believe that all heritage lines, of a given breed, are identical. If the birds, say Rocks or Reds or what have you, have been bred well, very well, very close to the standard, but with an emphasis by a certain keeper/breeder of that line with an eye to this or that, then after 10 or 20 years? That's what those birds become. If they were bred for frame and meat? The keeper of that line should be able to demonstrate good quality in that emphasis. If they were selected for quick feathering, a usual sign of good laying, and laying records kept carefully? A given line can easily lay 20-30 eggs more than another line where such was not the emphasis. Would this difference push someone toward the "Smith" line as opposed to the "Jones" line?

Dunno. Quite possibly. Different strokes for different folks. I don't believe it wrong for a prospective buyer to ask these questions of a breeder.

Precisely! I think the question is often what does this breed do or this breed do, but the reality is that the strain in question is doing what it has been selected to do regardless of what breed reputation or heritgae might suggest. Thus respecting Standard and heritage become important to keep the breed within the niche for which it was taylored.

 

[Cedarknob]

Let me see if I understand how this works-- since the SQ stock already has athe frame, then you can select for heavier muscling over the years. THis is interesting. Correct me if I have misunderstood.

The SOP for Cornish calls for a very meaty bird as well as that frame, they're SOP demands heavy meat, and for the most part the winning birds at the shows I've attended had both. My DC were from a breeder that was breeding show winners and had a market for selling her culls to one person for processing, as 6 lb. broilers, that looked nearly identical dressed to the commercial birds. Their additional time needed to reach that weight does mean it costs more but the flavor is superb to me and evidently to the individual that bought all her culls. In my opinion Cornish are obsolete mostly because of the time it takes to get them ready for processing; even in their heyday their major commercial value was to cross with a faster growing breed. I think they tried to turn around a pen of meat chickens from start to finish in around 16 weeks back then to see a decent profit; now it's about half that. Pure Cornish did not serve well even for those early requirements for a commercial pen.

Since I'm not growing my birds for the boneless meat market, I'm not concerned with bone to meat ratios. I can breed both for show looks and meat production While that great looking Cornish head and wide girth shanks are not going to my table, neither do they or any other show winning traits hurt their value for them there for me.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

The SOP for Cornish calls for a very meaty bird as well as that frame, they're SOP demands heavy meat, and for the most part the winning birds at the shows I've attended had both. My DC were from a breeder that was breeding show winners and had a market for selling her culls to one person for processing, as 6 lb. broilers, that looked nearly identical dressed to the commercial birds. Their additional time needed to reach that weight does mean it costs more but the flavor is superb to me and evidently to the individual that bought all her culls. In my opinion Cornish are obsolete mostly because of the time it takes to get them ready for processing; even in their heyday their major commercial value was to cross with a faster growing breed. I think they tried to turn around a pen of meat chickens from start to finish in around 16 weeks back then to see a decent profit; now it's about half that. Pure Cornish did not serve well even for those early requirements for a commercial pen.

Since I'm not growing my birds for the boneless meat market, I'm not concerned with bone to meat ratios. I can breed both for show looks and meat production While that great looking Cornish head and wide girth shanks are not going to my table, neither do they or any other show winning traits hurt their value for them there for me.

The same end occurs with the Dorking. The SOP calls for a bird that results in a meaty bird. So, by selecting for the SOP Shape, we are selecting for meat. Market-wise I thnk that it depends. We've managed to carve out a modest market for our birds at a price the justifies the effort. We're hardly, in an way, the next perdu. On the other hand, if the your bird of choice is filling your larder with delicious meat that delights the palate and the soul, well, that's certainly good enough by my way of thinking.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Let me see if I understand how this works-- since the SQ stock already has athe frame, then you can select for heavier muscling over the years. THis is interesting. Correct me if I have misunderstood.

Yes, and chime in here Bob, but I'd say this is also where Bob was going. If you select to the SOP your breed will be poised to produce according to its niche. Kind of like buying the "basic model", but then, in accordance to your will and purpose, you can start other selection criteria/methods, like five years of trapnesting, that lead to an even more productive bird, all while maintaining the SOP basics of shape and color.

 

[Arielle]

I don't believe that all heritage lines, of a given breed, are identical. If the birds, say Rocks or Reds or what have you, have been bred well, very well, very close to the standard, but with an emphasis by a certain keeper/breeder of that line with an eye to this or that, then after 10 or 20 years? That's what those birds become. If they were bred for frame and meat? The keeper of that line should be able to demonstrate good quality in that emphasis. If they were selected for quick feathering, a usual sign of good laying, and laying records kept carefully? A given line can easily lay 20-30 eggs more than another line where such was not the emphasis. Would this difference push someone toward the "Smith" line as opposed to the "Jones" line?

Dunno. Quite possibly. Different strokes for different folks. I don't believe it wrong for a prospective buyer to ask these questions of a breeder.

I've been stewing over what Fred had to say above. I looked at the ABLC listing of chickens, and their footnote is that most data was compiled from Sand Hill. THen to me the data is applicable to Sand Hill stock, and not necessarily or likely to other strains. Perhaps it is a starting point: some characteristics are more likely to be certain than other points. I would feel more certain about egg color and foraging/ less foraging style than say numbers of eggs, or dressing weights.

I wondered if any feels like it could be valuable to record the same characteristics for the stock we do have. Perhaps m ost of us don't collect that level of data for a number of reasons. Just a thought.