Feed Questions

[Sherol]

I have been reading over the threads on feed and have some questions. My last bag of feed was Nutrena and I ferment that feed. The chickens got half of their daily ration that was fermented over night and then dry added in an equal amount to make a mash. Never had issue with waste.. all was cleaned up. TS was out when I needed feed and I got the Dumore brand. It is "dirty" for lack of a better word. I feed crumbles and the Dumore is more a greyish color ad there is always little dark bits that float in the fermenting water. They also seem to need more [twice as much] of this feed than the other. I am not interested in Purina. I checked the Nutrena site and they do use GMO grains. I have some local feed companies that make their own, but concern is local farmers growing GMO type grains that would be used in the local feeds.

TS has organic but it is a bit more expensive. I see corn as first ingredients usually and soy also included and my understanding that in todays world most corn and soy are GMO. I do not think organic means no-GMO but in the ways the crops are grown. And GMO type grains allow them to grow and thrive in the organic conditions. And with abundance of GMO corn available is it safe to assume that deer corn and birdseed/squirrel corn these days is also GMO and now being fed to wildlife. Would love some clarification here..

Also.. if you are feeding a feed.. Nutrena and the rest.. that uses GMO grains... does that get passed on into the eggs, and offspring? Would assume might not want to eat birds fed a GMO feed. I am not interested in mixing my own feed and concern is any grains available would have some that are GMO and so defeat the purpose. Is it possible to mix a commercial feed with something else to offset some of the negative with the GMO grains? I do feed sprouted BOSS and also some oats that are fermented but feel the need a well balanced base.

I have 17 birds that 4 ended up being roosters. Will probably do something with two of the roos in time. We are about 12 weeks old now and my plan was to feed a basic flock feed and supplement with oyster. What protein percentage am I aiming for with a flock feed? What age should I make the oyster available?

I purchase beef suet to make feeder blocks for my wild birds. Can this rendered suet be used to feed chickens? I am in Texas so it would be a cold day treat. Not really wanting to do corn.

 

[Free Spirit]

Technically GMO's are not allowed in Certified Organic but like mentioned above there are loopholes. The following are a few articles about GMO's and organic labeling. You can't always trust the labels.

http://onf.coop/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/GMO.pdf

http://www.organic.org/articles/showarticle/article-201

http://blogs.usda.gov/2014/05/16/organic-101-understanding-the-made-with-organic-label/

Love this last one as it mentions the tiny loopholes in which you find GMO's in Certified Organic.
http://gmo-awareness.com/2011/05/05/is-organic-always-gmo-free/

 

[shortgrass]

@Cindy in PA, I'm not bashing lol; I'm educating.

I grow organic crops and produce organic beef and chicken/eggs. CERTIFIED crops...

I also grow organic produced crops, GM seed produced organically.

My entire life is devoted to educating and helping others embrace organic methods in big AG, so I really really do hope that you didn't intend my post as anything more than clarifying something for you that sadly, A LOT of people don't truly understand the entire process of.

With what can I help clarify? I definitely don't want to come across as bashing my own business

 

[shortgrass]

I had to go back and answer some questions for you I'll actually try to answer them all to the best if my ability, but my computer ability is limited lol, so apologies in advance if I mess it all up

I have been reading over the threads on feed and have some questions. My last bag of feed was Nutrena and I ferment that feed. The chickens got half of their daily ration that was fermented over night and then dry added in an equal amount to make a mash. Never had issue with waste.. all was cleaned up. TS was out when I needed feed and I got the Dumore brand. It is "dirty" for lack of a better word. I feed crumbles and the Dumore is more a greyish color ad there is always little dark bits that float in the fermenting water. They also seem to need more [twice as much] of this feed than the other. I am not interested in Purina. I checked the Nutrena site and they do use GMO grains. I have some local feed companies that make their own, but concern is local farmers growing GMO type grains that would be used in the local feeds.

TS has organic but it is a bit more expensive. I see corn as first ingredients usually and soy also included and my understanding that in todays world most corn and soy are GMO. I do not think organic means no-GMO but in the ways the crops are grown. And GMO type grains allow them to grow and thrive in the organic conditions. And with abundance of GMO corn available is it safe to assume that deer corn and birdseed/squirrel corn these days is also GMO and now being fed to wildlife. Would love some clarification here..


Ok, on this subject, you are mostly correct. Commercial soy is almost 100% GMO but there are varieties that have been kept hybridized without modification. Hard to find and pricey, but out there. Same with corn. We grow organic, but the varieties are non GMO and organic as well. We also grow conventional corn, and those crops are GM seed, and treated as such. No contamination is allowed, in fact, the circles of organic corn are actually in another COUNTY. Buffer zone

We grow the GMO corn with organic practices though. No Glyphosate. Which is what the main problem with GMO is; they are usually doused with round up, since that's usually the reason for the modification vin the first place; to make it resistant to Glyphosate.

Also.. if you are feeding a feed.. Nutrena and the rest.. that uses GMO grains... does that get passed on into the eggs, and offspring? Would assume might not want to eat birds fed a GMO feed. I am not interested in mixing my own feed and concern is any grains available would  have some that are GMO and so defeat the purpose. Is it possible to mix a commercial feed with something else to offset some of the negative with the GMO grains? I do feed sprouted BOSS and also some oats that are fermented but feel the need a well balanced base.

Same as above, its not necessarily the grain, but the chemicals put on it during its growth. Also, GM grain has been hybridized for performance at the cost of nutritional value. Organic or non GMO is going to have better nutrient content in less feed. If you are going to be producing organic, all ingredients and practices need to be 97% organic (3% allotment in accidental exposure). If you want to produce non GMO, it needs to be 100% non GMO seed and practices. That does not mean that GMO HAS to be organic, but if its labeled "Certified organic" it has to be organic, and "non GMO" also has to be non GMO. But you can have "organic produced" product without it being "certified", and that includes GMO.

I have 17 birds that 4 ended up being roosters. Will probably do something with two of the  roos in time. We are about 12 weeks old now and my plan was to feed a basic flock feed and supplement with oyster. What protein percentage am I aiming for with a flock feed? What age should I make the oyster available?

A good aim for mature adult flock is 18% protein. But don't forget that they need crude energy, digestible fiber, fat, and vitamins and minerals. Oyster shell should be offered no later than onset of lay. I offer it at all times, but they usually start eating it about a month before maturity, 18 weeks or so.

I purchase beef suet to make feeder blocks for my wild birds. Can this rendered suet be used to feed chickens? I am in Texas so it would be a cold day treat. Not really wanting to do corn.

As long as the beef suet is from beef that is organic or non GMO


Really hope I covered all the bases Let me know if I missed something....

 

[Free Spirit]

I think there is a huge misunderstanding about GMO's. So many people out there hear how "bad" it is without a real understanding of what it really means and the intent of the modification. So much misinformation out there and the public believes most of it without fact checking for themselves. My first choice, of course, is to buy organic non GMO; however, I would chose a GMO grown organically over non-GMO not grown organically and was treated with chemicals.

Why?

GMO's were modified to be naturally resistant to pests and fungus so a grower would not need to spray insecticides and fungicides. Thereby can grow GMO's organically without the chemicals and have less losses in pest and fungal damages. Non-GMO's grown organically take heavy losses in pest and fungal damage (and is why it costs so much). Non-GMO's not grown organically are sprayed with chemicals to reduce losses. This may be why more growers choose to grow GMO's as they save money not buying the chemicals and take less losses to crop damage.

So the biggest issue with GMO's is it's resistance to herbicides. That means that a grower can broad spray Round Up to control weeds and not kill off the crops. This is where the term organic GMO vs non organic GMO can make for misunderstanding. If GMO corn is grown and no pesticide, fungicide, nor herbicide (i.e. no chemicals) are used then it can be considered Organic GMO.


This is my understanding from extensive reading so @shortgrass please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[shortgrass]

I think there is a huge misunderstanding about GMO's. So many people out there hear how "bad" it is without a real understanding of what it really means and the intent of the modification. So much misinformation out there and the public believes most of it without fact checking for themselves. My first choice, of course, is to buy organic non GMO; however, I would chose a GMO grown organically over non-GMO not grown organically and was treated with chemicals.

Why?

GMO's were modified to be naturally resistant to pests and fungus so a grower would not need to spray insecticides and fungicides. Thereby can grow GMO's organically without the chemicals and have less losses in pest and fungal damages. Non-GMO's grown organically take heavy losses in pest and fungal damage (and is why it costs so much). Non-GMO's not grown organically are sprayed with chemicals to reduce losses. This may be why more growers choose to grow GMO's as they save money not buying the chemicals and take less losses to crop damage.

So the biggest issue with GMO's is it's resistance to herbicides. That means that a grower can broad spray Round Up to control weeds and not kill off the crops. This is where the term organic GMO vs non organic GMO can make for misunderstanding. If GMO corn is grown and no pesticide, fungicide, nor herbicide (i.e. no chemicals) are used then it can be considered Organic GMO.


This is my understanding from extensive reading so @shortgrass
 please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

You nailed it!

Thank you; I lack the ability to write out everything so nicely and easily understood, lol

 

[aart]

I think there is a huge misunderstanding about GMO's. So many people out there hear how "bad" it is without a real understanding of what it really means and the intent of the modification. So much misinformation out there and the public believes most of it without fact checking for themselves. My first choice, of course, is to buy organic non GMO; however, I would chose a GMO grown organically over non-GMO not grown organically and was treated with chemicals.

Why?

GMO's were modified to be naturally resistant to pests and fungus so a grower would not need to spray insecticides and fungicides. Thereby can grow GMO's organically without the chemicals and have less losses in pest and fungal damages. Non-GMO's grown organically take heavy losses in pest and fungal damage (and is why it costs so much). Non-GMO's not grown organically are sprayed with chemicals to reduce losses. This may be why more growers choose to grow GMO's as they save money not buying the chemicals and take less losses to crop damage.

So the biggest issue with GMO's is it's resistance to herbicides. That means that a grower can broad spray Round Up to control weeds and not kill off the crops. This is where the term organic GMO vs non organic GMO can make for misunderstanding. If GMO corn is grown and no pesticide, fungicide, nor herbicide (i.e. no chemicals) are used then it can be considered Organic GMO.


This is my understanding from extensive reading so @shortgrass please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually I thought some GMO's were created so they are resistant to certain chemicals....
....EI: 'Roundup Ready Corn' so broad leaf weeds can be killed using Roundup and it won't effect the corn plants.

I don't think any of us will ever really know what is what with GMO's...there is so much misinformation and Monsanto ain't telling it's secrets.
You can plant non GMO seed, but if there's any GMO growing with 3-5 miles the pollen will get to your plants and if tested will show GMO DNA.

Course I also don't believe the 'organic', 'nonGMO', 'pasture raised', 'etc-etc-etc' labels these days...it's 90% marketing ploy to a frightened public.
Not much of it is sufficiently monitored, the regs are full of loopholes, and 'certification' just keeps going up in price.

Off my soapbox.

 

[Free Spirit]

So.. GMO is not really the issue but the conditions grown.

Yes and no. People have a problems with the "methods" in which GMO's are created and with what. First a little explanation starting from the beginning.

Starting from Heirloom:
Seeds are selectively saved from the best plants that show desired traits, qualities, and natural resistance to fungus and insects. These are planted the next year in "hopes" that these natural genes have been passed on to naturally keep producing these traits. Think of how pets are bred for desired traits and colors - same thing. To get to the desired outcome takes lots and lots of time and these traits can revert back to the original variety over time.

Creating Hybrids:
A natural form of selective engineering. Hybrids are created by cross-pollinating two varieties of the same species. Take tomatoes for example, pollinating a sweet tomato (Brandywine) with a large tomato (beef steak) to get a large sweet tomato. The seeds are not sterile as some claim. Only that the seeds from these hybrids regrown have unpredictable results and often revert back to one of the parent plants. If we think back to the pet analogy - If you cross a Beagle with a Poodle you get a new breed called a Poogle (yes it's a real breed or rather hybrid) If you breed two of these together you could end up with a Beagle in the litter.

GMO (Genetically Modified Organism):
GMO's are a different entity and where people get the negative view of GMO's. For example, taking one living organism (corn) and slicing into it another living organism of a completely different genetic make up (bacteria) to produce a pest resistant corn. The bacteria in this example is Bacillus thuringiensis ("BT" for short). BT is a natural occurring bacterium that is harmful to corn earworms and cut worms.

Because BT is natural and safe pesticide, organic farmers use it as a natural "safe" pest control. GMO corn has been spliced with BT to produce a plant resistant to earworms and other pests. Therefore, the BT "pesticide" is built into the genetic structure of the plant. The only way to avoid getting corn without BT (or any other natural pesticide such as Neem Oil) is to find a grower that doesn't use ANY controls for his crops and lets nature take it's course (or grows in controlled greenhouses). Good luck finding one.

I hope this helps paint a clearer picture of why GMOs get misunderstood. Many people simply do not like laboratory plant manipulation as it goes against natural selection.

 

[Free Spirit]

Organic feed seems double regular and need to know what exactly is the organic.. they don't use pesticides or chemicals? If the chickens eat non-organic then what is in the eggs and meat that may pass on to me and should there be any concerns there?

As you can see from the discussion here that the answer to your question is not a simple one to answer. The simple answer is that if your trying to be healthy then look for organic labeling and buy organic when and if you can afford to. Grow your own produce if you can and have the space. It is unlikely to be 100% organic 100% of the time. You simply do the best you can and don't worry if it's not perfect. A little bit of trying is better than doing nothing at all. If you only can do 20% organic/80% non organic then you are still 20% better than you were before.

 

[Folly's place]

Certified organic feed is non-GMO by definition. Dumor is made by Purina as their price brand. I'm happy feeding Purina Flock Raiser, because, while I do buy organic veggies and fruits as available, I'm not a totally organic food eater anyway. If you want organically fed birds, then that's all you can feed, and it will be way more expensive than non-organic feed. If you mix the feeds, your birds are no longer being fed organic. The same is true of you feed organic and then add non-organic treats and scraps. Chicken eggs and meat are not infested with grain proteins; the bird converts the feed into chicken and chicken egg proteins, at the amino acid level. Biochemistry! Mary