Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Wisher1000]

Well, from one "gun toting Christian that is proud of her Southern Heritage" to another, good luck and much success on your line of Javas, no matter how you arrive at them!

 

[bnjrob]

Well, from one "gun toting Christian that is proud of her Southern Heritage" to another, good luck and much success on your line of Javas, no matter how you arrive at them!

 

[BGMatt]

The change in the Mottled SOP has definitely made it difficult for anyone to obtain that precise mottling.  All of the photos I've found show the same splashed coloration that we have now.  But I can appreciate the fact that they changed the SOP with the intent of keeping the Java bloodlines pure.  I've found evidence of an apparently good amount of *breed swapping* so to speak, of entering other birds as Javas in shows.  And to someone that has put the work into getting their pureblooded Java up to the SOP,  with all the Java's quirks, only to have someone enter a different bird as a Java would be irritating to me.

Of course it is possible that if I were interested in this from an exhibitioner's perspective and only interested in getting an SOP bird to take to shows, then I may not feel like taking one breed and turning it into another would be *cheating*.  But I don't give a rat's behind about showing.  I got into poultry keeping for the utility purposes. I decided to learn about the SOP because I thought it was important to not have generic birds and to keep the integrity of my breed's heritage intact - political arguments and all the trouble it has had throughout the years.  And it's something that I believe in as much as I believe in my right to being a gun toting Christian that is proud of her Southern Heritage.  It's just something that I can't explain to other people that don't feel the same way. 

There was no change to Mottled, it has a very specific definition. You're being fed a story. Also, almost all our breeds are a combination, and other breeds being turned into others. Unless you raise jungle fowl, or a breed old enough its origins are completely shrouded. The Java is a relative newcomer compared to many many many breeds.

 

[bnjrob]

There was no change to Mottled, it has a very specific definition. You're being fed a story. Also, almost all our breeds are a combination, and other breeds being turned into others. Unless you raise jungle fowl, or a breed old enough its origins are completely shrouded. The Java is a relative newcomer compared to many many many breeds.

For someone that doesn't raise Javas, you certainly have strong opinions about what I should think, do, and believe about them. And I'll just be going on my merry little way and disregard your opinions. But thanks for providing an evening's entertainment.

 

[BGMatt]

For someone that doesn't raise Javas, you certainly have strong opinions about what I should think, do, and believe about them.  And I'll just be going on my merry little way and disregard your opinions.  But thanks for providing an evening's entertainment.

I care about all Standard bred poultry. Just see everywhere people get obsessed with "lines" and it hurts the breeds as a whole. I tried Javas for a while, as well as almost all the other breeds derived from the Langshan, but just weren't for me. That said, believe what you want, I was just trying to be helpful and share experience and wisdom to help someone who appears to care about the future of their breed. Good luck, it's nice to see people caring about established breeds over fads and trends.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

The change in the Mottled SOP has definitely made it difficult for anyone to obtain that precise mottling. All of the photos I've found show the same splashed coloration that we have now. But I can appreciate the fact that they changed the SOP with the intent of keeping the Java bloodlines pure. I've found evidence of an apparently good amount of *breed swapping* so to speak, of entering other birds as Javas in shows. And to someone that has put the work into getting their pureblooded Java up to the SOP, with all the Java's quirks, only to have someone enter a different bird as a Java would be irritating to me.

Of course it is possible that if I were interested in this from an exhibitioner's perspective and only interested in getting an SOP bird to take to shows, then I may not feel like taking one breed and turning it into another would be *cheating*. But I don't give a rat's behind about showing. I got into poultry keeping for the utility purposes. I decided to learn about the SOP because I thought it was important to not have generic birds and to keep the integrity of my breed's heritage intact - political arguments and all the trouble it has had throughout the years. And it's something that I believe in as much as I believe in my right to being a gun toting Christian that is proud of her Southern Heritage. It's just something that I can't explain to other people that don't feel the same way.

Are there any heritage breeds associations that do keep pedigree records? Just from reading a lot of different forum posts, it seems there are quite a few people who agree that bloodlines are/ or should be an important consideration when a bird is a Heritage breed.

 

[finnfur]

There was an interesting post by a APA judge on a Facebook chicken group about this.
"
Breed lines posted by Rip Stavley
By Steve Kroeger on Wednesday, October 8, 2014 at 8:25am
Very frequently we see people advertising birds from this breeders line or that breeders line. They say they have been breeding them for several years...but are they truly still the mentioned breeders line? Here's an some interesting thoughts by Ser Jennings that she posted on the New Hampshire SOP page. Rip
“Whose Bloodline Do You Have?”
by Sher Jennings
Anyone who knows me cringes when they overhear someone else tell me they have “the pure bloodline” or “75% bloodline” from “[fill this in with any New Hamp breeder’s name from decades ago]”. You can almost see my head start to spin around on my shoulders. It’s all I can do not to quote my mentor by responding “Listen crazy, that guy has been dead for decades. What are you talking about?!” Not that the point they’re trying to make is lost on me but it warrants a reality check.
Let’s assume you’ve already done your research on Hamps and selected a breeder that you purchase birds from. Whose line is that? Well, one would argue, it’s still that breeder’s line. Okay, I’ll give you that. Now you go to the next step..... you select the birds that you will be using for breeding and even showing, and the ones that are going to get culled, BOOM.........................guess whose line that is now. The breeder’s? Yours? Who made the selection choices and culling decisions? Now you’ve taken one big step forward (hopefully) into the gray area. And finally, you actually breed the birds you’ve selected, hatch the chicks, grow them out, cull through them, breed
some and even keep some to show. That is now YOUR bloodline. Period.
So when someone tells you “I saw someone selling your Hamp line on Craig’s List”, it would be appropriate to be mortified. Because even if they originally bought birds from you a few or even a couple years ago,..................NOT your line now. You haven’t made the culling or breeding decisions. And, worse yet, who knows what other lines they bred into those birds along the way. I’ve sold birds from an outstanding and established bloodline that produced uniform, massive birds of beautiful type. Two breeding seasons later I saw the buyers offspring and it looked NOTHING like my line. What you work with gets changed. It gets improved or deteriorated beginning with your first decision about culling and breeding. Even if you manage to “maintain” the quality.........the birds will still be changed based on your own eye, taste, breeding goals, experience, knowledge, mentor (you have one, right?),quality of feed & care, and genetic surprises that can occasionally creep up. YOUR line. Not “Omeg”. Not “pure German”(.....what does that even MEAN anymore?) Not mine. And not even a percentage of mine.
Now where you got your original breeding stock from? That can be important for a couple reasons. Many people do want to know where you chose to gather your foundation breeding stock from.........ie a specific breeder or more than one? a hatchery? It says a lot about your own standards and about what may or may not pop up in your bloodline......ie I know of a number of New Hamp breeders who pluck stubs and don’t cull for them.....and I know breeders who put those birds straight into a freezer (it’s a good question to ask if you’re shopping for Hamps, by the way). Where all that takes us is that it doesn’t make sense for me to say “I have the Williamson bloodline”. It makes even less sense for me to say “I have 50% Williamson & 50% Omeg Hamp bloodlines!” (If you hear this stuff while you’re shopping, offer a polite farewell and hang up the phone.) It does make sense for me to say “My foundation breeding stock came from Mike Omeg and Jimmy Williamson 8 years ago.”
On a final note, when you do buy birds from a breeder, if you decide to show any of those specific birds and you win, please make sure to give the breeder some credit. There is little in the universe that is more offensive and unforgiveable than to buy a bird, show and win with the bird, and then not give the breeder any credit. The fact that they were willing to put good quality stuff out there is a huge credit to that breeder and the role they are playing in improving & promoting the breed overall by “getting the good stuff out there”. Don’t disrespect that by stealing credit you didn’t earn.
Then, go forth, find a good mentor, and make good breeding and culling decisions with those birds. You’ll help move this great breed forward, leave a good impression, improve the existing lines, and earn the credit you deserve"

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

There was an interesting post by a APA judge on a Facebook chicken group about this.
"
Breed lines posted by Rip Stavley
By Steve Kroeger on Wednesday, October 8, 2014 at 8:25am
Very frequently we see people advertising birds from this breeders line or that breeders line. They say they have been breeding them for several years...but are they truly still the mentioned breeders line? Here's an some interesting thoughts by Ser Jennings that she posted on the New Hampshire SOP page. Rip
“Whose Bloodline Do You Have?”
by Sher Jennings
Anyone who knows me cringes when they overhear someone else tell me they have “the pure bloodline” or “75% bloodline” from “[fill this in with any New Hamp breeder’s name from decades ago]”. You can almost see my head start to spin around on my shoulders. It’s all I can do not to quote my mentor by responding “Listen crazy, that guy has been dead for decades. What are you talking about?!” Not that the point they’re trying to make is lost on me but it warrants a reality check.
Let’s assume you’ve already done your research on Hamps and selected a breeder that you purchase birds from. Whose line is that? Well, one would argue, it’s still that breeder’s line. Okay, I’ll give you that. Now you go to the next step..... you select the birds that you will be using for breeding and even showing, and the ones that are going to get culled, BOOM.........................guess whose line that is now. The breeder’s? Yours? Who made the selection choices and culling decisions? Now you’ve taken one big step forward (hopefully) into the gray area. And finally, you actually breed the birds you’ve selected, hatch the chicks, grow them out, cull through them, breed
some and even keep some to show. That is now YOUR bloodline. Period.
So when someone tells you “I saw someone selling your Hamp line on Craig’s List”, it would be appropriate to be mortified. Because even if they originally bought birds from you a few or even a couple years ago,..................NOT your line now. You haven’t made the culling or breeding decisions. And, worse yet, who knows what other lines they bred into those birds along the way. I’ve sold birds from an outstanding and established bloodline that produced uniform, massive birds of beautiful type. Two breeding seasons later I saw the buyers offspring and it looked NOTHING like my line. What you work with gets changed. It gets improved or deteriorated beginning with your first decision about culling and breeding. Even if you manage to “maintain” the quality.........the birds will still be changed based on your own eye, taste, breeding goals, experience, knowledge, mentor (you have one, right?),quality of feed & care, and genetic surprises that can occasionally creep up. YOUR line. Not “Omeg”. Not “pure German”(.....what does that even MEAN anymore?) Not mine. And not even a percentage of mine.
Now where you got your original breeding stock from? That can be important for a couple reasons. Many people do want to know where you chose to gather your foundation breeding stock from.........ie a specific breeder or more than one? a hatchery? It says a lot about your own standards and about what may or may not pop up in your bloodline......ie I know of a number of New Hamp breeders who pluck stubs and don’t cull for them.....and I know breeders who put those birds straight into a freezer (it’s a good question to ask if you’re shopping for Hamps, by the way). Where all that takes us is that it doesn’t make sense for me to say “I have the Williamson bloodline”. It makes even less sense for me to say “I have 50% Williamson & 50% Omeg Hamp bloodlines!” (If you hear this stuff while you’re shopping, offer a polite farewell and hang up the phone.) It does make sense for me to say “My foundation breeding stock came from Mike Omeg and Jimmy Williamson 8 years ago.”
On a final note, when you do buy birds from a breeder, if you decide to show any of those specific birds and you win, please make sure to give the breeder some credit. There is little in the universe that is more offensive and unforgiveable than to buy a bird, show and win with the bird, and then not give the breeder any credit. The fact that they were willing to put good quality stuff out there is a huge credit to that breeder and the role they are playing in improving & promoting the breed overall by “getting the good stuff out there”. Don’t disrespect that by stealing credit you didn’t earn.
Then, go forth, find a good mentor, and make good breeding and culling decisions with those birds. You’ll help move this great breed forward, leave a good impression, improve the existing lines, and earn the credit you deserve"

Thank you so much for posting this. This is EXCELLENT.

- Ant Farm

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Thanks Finnfur that's an excellent article, everything made perfect sense.

 

[bnjrob]

There was an interesting post by a APA judge on a Facebook chicken group about this.
"
Breed lines posted by Rip Stavley
By Steve Kroeger on Wednesday, October 8, 2014 at 8:25am
Very frequently we see people advertising birds from this breeders line or that breeders line. They say they have been breeding them for several years...but are they truly still the mentioned breeders line? Here's an some interesting thoughts by Ser Jennings that she posted on the New Hampshire SOP page. Rip
“Whose Bloodline Do You Have?”
by Sher Jennings
Anyone who knows me cringes when they overhear someone else tell me they have “the pure bloodline” or “75% bloodline” from “[fill this in with any New Hamp breeder’s name from decades ago]”. You can almost see my head start to spin around on my shoulders. It’s all I can do not to quote my mentor by responding “Listen crazy, that guy has been dead for decades. What are you talking about?!” Not that the point they’re trying to make is lost on me but it warrants a reality check.
Let’s assume you’ve already done your research on Hamps and selected a breeder that you purchase birds from. Whose line is that? Well, one would argue, it’s still that breeder’s line. Okay, I’ll give you that. Now you go to the next step..... you select the birds that you will be using for breeding and even showing, and the ones that are going to get culled, BOOM.........................guess whose line that is now. The breeder’s? Yours? Who made the selection choices and culling decisions? Now you’ve taken one big step forward (hopefully) into the gray area. And finally, you actually breed the birds you’ve selected, hatch the chicks, grow them out, cull through them, breed
some and even keep some to show. That is now YOUR bloodline. Period.
So when someone tells you “I saw someone selling your Hamp line on Craig’s List”, it would be appropriate to be mortified. Because even if they originally bought birds from you a few or even a couple years ago,..................NOT your line now. You haven’t made the culling or breeding decisions. And, worse yet, who knows what other lines they bred into those birds along the way. I’ve sold birds from an outstanding and established bloodline that produced uniform, massive birds of beautiful type. Two breeding seasons later I saw the buyers offspring and it looked NOTHING like my line. What you work with gets changed. It gets improved or deteriorated beginning with your first decision about culling and breeding. Even if you manage to “maintain” the quality.........the birds will still be changed based on your own eye, taste, breeding goals, experience, knowledge, mentor (you have one, right?),quality of feed & care, and genetic surprises that can occasionally creep up. YOUR line. Not “Omeg”. Not “pure German”(.....what does that even MEAN anymore?) Not mine. And not even a percentage of mine.
Now where you got your original breeding stock from? That can be important for a couple reasons. Many people do want to know where you chose to gather your foundation breeding stock from.........ie a specific breeder or more than one? a hatchery? It says a lot about your own standards and about what may or may not pop up in your bloodline......ie I know of a number of New Hamp breeders who pluck stubs and don’t cull for them.....and I know breeders who put those birds straight into a freezer (it’s a good question to ask if you’re shopping for Hamps, by the way). Where all that takes us is that it doesn’t make sense for me to say “I have the Williamson bloodline”. It makes even less sense for me to say “I have 50% Williamson & 50% Omeg Hamp bloodlines!” (If you hear this stuff while you’re shopping, offer a polite farewell and hang up the phone.) It does make sense for me to say “My foundation breeding stock came from Mike Omeg and Jimmy Williamson 8 years ago.”
On a final note, when you do buy birds from a breeder, if you decide to show any of those specific birds and you win, please make sure to give the breeder some credit. There is little in the universe that is more offensive and unforgiveable than to buy a bird, show and win with the bird, and then not give the breeder any credit. The fact that they were willing to put good quality stuff out there is a huge credit to that breeder and the role they are playing in improving & promoting the breed overall by “getting the good stuff out there”. Don’t disrespect that by stealing credit you didn’t earn.
Then, go forth, find a good mentor, and make good breeding and culling decisions with those birds. You’ll help move this great breed forward, leave a good impression, improve the existing lines, and earn the credit you deserve"

I think this is likely the best article I've seen on the issue.

It is true enough that after you have hatched offspring from birds you obtained, that is now YOUR line because you made the choices of who to mate together. I see a ton of people selling some lousy looking poultry via my local online classifieds, claiming they are show quality from well known breeders. And I know there is no way that those well known breeders would want to be associated with the crappy birds I see in photos being sold. Just this week someone was selling a variety of *special* chickens and using other people's photos to advertise them - I recognized the photos as having come from other sites. That to me is pretty deceitful but other people don't see it that way.

I like that this article also shows how knowing the history of the line gives you more info. It mentions being able to see what genetics are available and what might pop up in future. I have personally seen this in Javas. There is a line of Javas out there that would not be my first choice to get birds from, because I know things are popping up in that line that make me suspicious for recent crossbreeding and are DQs according to the SOP. In my poor producing bloodline, some physical deformities that have been known to occur in Javas for 100+ years, show up more frequently than in my better producing bloodline. The turkeys that we have, originally came from a well respected APA breeder and the breeder that I obtained them from made sure that production was emphasized, not just appearance, so I have an idea of what we've got to work with in our turkey flock.

To me, it's all in how you are using the bloodline/breeder information.

Thanks for finding this nice article.

Are there any heritage breeds associations that do keep pedigree records? Just from reading a lot of different forum posts, it seems there are quite a few people who agree that bloodlines are/ or should be an important consideration when a bird is a Heritage breed.

If there are, I am not aware of them.

There are a few small heritage breed associations out there, but I don't belong to them. From what I've seen, they seem to be lacking in much activity so I haven't seen any value to joining them. There have been a number of Java clubs over the years, but they always go defunct. It's been a good long while since there was any update to the Java bloodline chart since the club went from not really active to inactive a few years ago and is now just a pretty website.

I think it's that there just isn't enough people breeding some of these old birds that are willing to come together to put a lot of effort into research, documentation, and promoting the breeds. And these days, it really needs to be done online because many of us are not able to take time off from work to travel to poultry shows, yet I keep being told that real breeders don't play on the internet, they go to poultry shows and do their business there. That cuts out a lot of people by not having a web presence.

Most of the people I've come across, except for certain Java folks, don't care much about bloodlines, because they are focused on the appearance of the bird in order to exhibit it. That whole if it looks like a duck thing. Not to mention the amount of politics that goes into this stuff that it impacts doing things like keeping track of historical bloodlines. I'm glad to know you did find other people that also place some importance on the history of poultry though.