Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Beekissed]

That's what one of the guys who approached me at that show asked me, "Whose lines are they out of?". I said, "They are my line, the Fox Run line". He repeated, "But...whose lines are they OUT of???", as if I were hard of hearing. I said again, "These are my line." And he looked frustrated and asked, "But where did you get YOUR line?" and I said, "Well....two breedings back I bred a bird I was given from Ken Weaver, out of a line he had been breeding on for awhile that he had gotten from Blosl, and now this is my line out of that background." Then he said, "But whose line is the female out of?" By then I was so done with this guy....I told him the female was out of hatchery stock line that I had had for several years and now all the birds were my line. He just looked rather puzzled by that statement. It's as true a statement I could make about those birds, but there seemed to be a disconnect.

I want to give credit where credit is due for fine birds but I also don't want to credit any past breeders with any mistakes in the birds I now possess, so it's a difficult thing to convey to someone who is insisting on knowing the lineage of the birds. One doesn't know quite what to say at that point.

 

[bnjrob]

That's what one of the guys who approached me at that show asked me, "Whose lines are they out of?". I said, "They are my line, the Fox Run line". He repeated, "But...whose lines are they OUT of???", as if I were hard of hearing. I said again, "These are my line." And he looked frustrated and asked, "But where did you get YOUR line?" and I said, "Well....two breedings back I bred a bird I was given from Ken Weaver, out of a line he had been breeding on for awhile that he had gotten from Blosl, and now this is my line out of that background." Then he said, "But whose line is the female out of?" By then I was so done with this guy....I told him the female was out of hatchery stock line that I had had for several years and now all the birds were my line. He just looked rather puzzled by that statement. It's as true a statement I could make about those birds, but there seemed to be a disconnect.

I want to give credit where credit is due for fine birds but I also don't want to credit any past breeders with any mistakes in the birds I now possess, so it's a difficult thing to convey to someone who is insisting on knowing the lineage of the birds. One doesn't know quite what to say at that point.

LOL - I can just see you telling the guy your bird was hatchery stock.

It gets confusing when people don't always realize that there may be more than one interpretation of the same term.

The names of bloodlines and the terms *heritage* and *show quality* are all terminology that is dependent on what meaning, significance, and use, that each person places on them. You have to decide what those mean to you and how you use them, then ask questions of the people you're talking to. That way you can know how to discuss things so that everyone understands, even if they use the term in a different way that you do.

 

[MagicChicken]

 
That's what one of the guys who approached me at that show asked me, "Whose lines are they out of?".  I said, "They are my line, the Fox Run line".  He repeated, "But...whose lines are they OUT of???", as if I were hard of hearing.  I said again, "These are my line."   And he looked frustrated and asked, "But where did you get YOUR line?" and I said, "Well....two breedings back I bred a bird I was given from Ken Weaver, out of a line he had been breeding on for awhile that he had gotten from Blosl, and now this is my line out of that background."  Then he said, "But whose line is the female out of?"  By then I was so done with this guy....I told him the female was out of hatchery stock line that I had had for several years and now all the birds were my line.   He just looked rather puzzled by that statement.  It's as true a statement I could make about those birds, but there seemed to be a disconnect.  

I want to give credit where credit is due for fine birds but I also don't want to credit any past breeders with any mistakes in the birds I now possess, so it's a difficult thing to convey to someone who is insisting on knowing the lineage of the birds.  One doesn't know quite what to say at that point. 

LOL - I can just see you telling the guy your bird was hatchery stock. 

It gets confusing when people don't always realize that there may be more than one interpretation of the same term.

The names of bloodlines and the terms *heritage* and *show quality* are all terminology that is dependent on what meaning, significance, and use,  that each person places on them.  You have to decide what those mean to you and how you use them, then ask questions of the people you're talking to.  That way you can know how to discuss things so that everyone understands, even if they use the term in a different way that you do.

Hope my iPad lets me respond. I haven't been able to get Ovations to work. Love this whole discussion.

I got my foundation stock of Black Javas from Urch. After the dogs broke into my yard and killed half my flock I picked up some more Javas from a friend who has been working with his line for several years. He got his foundation stock from a hatchery. His birds are not as consistent as he wants but they have placed well in our smaller shows.

There is no shame in starting with hatchery birds. It's how you develop them from there that counts. The folks who start with hatchery birds and breed them up into show-worthy examples of their breed are, in my mind, pretty darned awesome breeders. That takes more skill than maintaining status quo in an already good line. Which isn't easy, either.

Wish I could have heard that conversation between Bee and the guy at the show when she told him she started with hatchery stock. It would have been priceless.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

I have a question about hatchery stock- I've never actually purchased any pure breeds from a hatchery (just production birds), so I have no experience with this- but does the quality of the stock not vary by hatchery and breed? It it possible to get halfway decent representatives of some breeds from some hatcheries?

 

[finnfur]

I think the odds are less to get quality from hatchery mainly because they are in the business to sell chicks and to make a profit you need to have quantity so there would be less select breeding. Doesn't mean you can't but the odds go way down. That said, I have seen some hatchery that looks better than some from people that call them selves breeders . Because the chicken business is one that if you hatch eggs you can say your a breeder.
My stance is that the buyer has to determine what they want and then do research to find out where it is.
And in the chicken world its hard to do.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

I think the odds are less to get quality from hatchery mainly because they are in the business to sell chicks and to make a profit you need to have quantity so there would be less select breeding. Doesn't mean you can't but the odds go way down. That said, I have seen some hatchery that looks better than some from people that call them selves breeders . Because the chicken business is one that if you hatch eggs you can say your a breeder.
My stance is that the buyer has to determine what they want and then do research to find out where it is.
And in the chicken world its hard to do.

Very true about some of the "breeders" ! Some are easy to spot, especially ones that breed Road Island Reds and Silver Spaniel Hamburgs (in today's kijiji ads). Although the Internet has made things a bit easier that it used to be. But I still think leafing through a poultry magazine is fun - I especially enjoy the early 20th century ads in the old poultry journals. Things seemed so much more optimistic back then especially the get- rich- quick-from- chickens- schemes. (scams?

)

 

[finnfur]

Very true about some of the "breeders" ! Some are easy to spot, especially ones that breed Road Island Reds and Silver Spaniel Hamburgs (in today's kijiji ads). Although the Internet has made things a bit easier that it used to be. But I still think leafing through a poultry magazine is fun - I especially enjoy the early 20th century ads in the old poultry journals. Things seemed so much more optimistic back then especially the get- rich- quick-from- chickens- schemes. (scams?

)

If you like the older stuff you would most likely enjoy this - Since we do Delawares the old heritage meat bird is my interest.
This is the video and the actual in depth results are also online in a study - This is before the CornishX hit the market.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

If you like the older stuff you would most likely enjoy this - Since we do Delawares the old heritage meat bird is my interest.
This is the video and the actual in depth results are also online in a study - This is before the CornishX hit the market.

Thank you! yes I did enjoy that. Funny how a cornish x won the first contest! Although it was Cornish x New Hampshire.

 

[Beekissed]

I have a question about hatchery stock- I've never actually purchased any pure breeds from a hatchery (just production birds), so I have no experience with this- but does the quality of the stock not vary by hatchery and breed? It it possible to get halfway decent representatives of some breeds from some hatcheries?

I think it's possible if you are fortunate enough to get a reasonable facsimile of the breed and breed more excellent stock over it. Much like with cattle, horses, sheep, etc., I'm guessing one can improve on stock by taking the best of what you have and breeding a quality stud over them, cull hard and keep going. At least, that's what I'm counting on. I had heard the breeder stock weren't laying as well as the hatchery stock and I had some really good looking hatchery WRs that laid like machines for years, so why not try it? God blessed me with just 2 eggs that made it through a hatch from a 6 yr old WR, the last of her bunch I had from the hatchery. I had figured she was too old to even reproduce effectively but when I saw the shape of those two pullets, I could tell that old WR had come through...they were the spitting image of her shape, her feather quality, etc, but with subtle differences...marginally more width in the tail from the good male they had for a sire.

Then I bred those two pullets and their offspring are showing a much better tail head, though I must say I'm going down in size of the hen...the original hatchery birds were bigger, heavier hens than these current birds I have, so the good male isn't adding to the size but seems to be taking that trait away from the original. Time will tell if I'm just breeding myself into a corner, which a couple of the guys have already told me I would be doing.

I've got a few I'll keep from last season's breeding and will proceed from there. The best pullet of the bunch(my recent show girl) is currently sitting 19 eggs out in the woods right now, so if she survives out there, she'll show me where this line is going with breeding my 75% breeder/25% hatchery male this year. I also have a true cull sitting behind a wood pile on 16, a few of her own eggs and some I planted in her nest....we'll see what pops out of that nest.

I don't know what I'm doing but I'm doing it as hard as I can. I'm not a bit ashamed to insert some hatchery stock into the mix...I'm sure there's been many a breeder do it, but probably not broadcasting it much. Since I'm not a real breeder, I can get creative without feeling ashamed of it.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

I think it's possible if you are fortunate enough to get a reasonable facsimile of the breed and breed more excellent stock over it. Much like with cattle, horses, sheep, etc., I'm guessing one can improve on stock by taking the best of what you have and breeding a quality stud over them, cull hard and keep going. At least, that's what I'm counting on. I had heard the breeder stock weren't laying as well as the hatchery stock and I had some really good looking hatchery WRs that laid like machines for years, so why not try it? God blessed me with just 2 eggs that made it through a hatch from a 6 yr old WR, the last of her bunch I had from the hatchery. I had figured she was too old to even reproduce effectively but when I saw the shape of those two pullets, I could tell that old WR had come through...they were the spitting image of her shape, her feather quality, etc, but with subtle differences...marginally more width in the tail from the good male they had for a sire.

Then I bred those two pullets and their offspring are showing a much better tail head, though I must say I'm going down in size of the hen...the original hatchery birds were bigger, heavier hens than these current birds I have, so the good male isn't adding to the size but seems to be taking that trait away from the original. Time will tell if I'm just breeding myself into a corner, which a couple of the guys have already told me I would be doing.

I've got a few I'll keep from last season's breeding and will proceed from there. The best pullet of the bunch(my recent show girl) is currently sitting 19 eggs out in the woods right now, so if she survives out there, she'll show me where this line is going with breeding my 75% breeder/25% hatchery male this year. I also have a true cull sitting behind a wood pile on 16, a few of her own eggs and some I planted in her nest....we'll see what pops out of that nest.

I don't know what I'm doing but I'm doing it as hard as I can. I'm not a bit ashamed to insert some hatchery stock into the mix...I'm sure there's been many a breeder do it, but probably not broadcasting it much. Since I'm not a real breeder, I can get creative without feeling ashamed of it.

Thanks Beekissed. Good luck with all those eggs! Hopefully most of them will hatch.