Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Wisher1000]

I was told by an old breeder that you get your size from your hens and your color from your rooster. Type comes from both.

 

[MagicChicken]

I was told by an old breeder that you get your size from your hens and your color from your rooster. Type comes from both.

I've been trying to increase the size of the birds in my flock. Figured if I paired my biggest hen with my biggest cock they'd produce big chicks. Ironically that cross produced some of the smallest birds in my flock. I did get a couple of decent size birds from them but nowhere near the results I was looking for. I'm starting to look at other things that might be affecting size. It's an interesting problem.

I just culled an otherwise good looking hen from that large hen-large cock pairing. She only weighed 4.5 lbs. Java pullets are supposed to be 6.5 lbs. Hens should be 7.5 lbs. She was 13 months old. She wasn't going to catch up. Her mother weighs 8 lbs and has been a large bird all her life.

 

[bnjrob]

I've been trying to increase the size of the birds in my flock. Figured if I paired my biggest hen with my biggest cock they'd produce big chicks. Ironically that cross produced some of the smallest birds in my flock. I did get a couple of decent size birds from them but nowhere near the results I was looking for. I'm starting to look at other things that might be affecting size. It's an interesting problem.

I just culled an otherwise good looking hen from that large hen-large cock pairing. She only weighed 4.5 lbs. Java pullets are supposed to be 6.5 lbs. Hens should be 7.5 lbs. She was 13 months old. She wasn't going to catch up. Her mother weighs 8 lbs and has been a large bird all her life.

That's a tiny hen. Size is still something I'm working on but it is getting better. I haven't found any correlation between one parent or the other seeming to contribute to offspring size though. Weight is a factor when choosing the breeders, but at times I have had to go with a lighter hen than I wanted, because it had other traits that were better than a heavier weight hen. For the most part the males that are the heaviest usually have the other traits that are ok, if not good. Except combs. I've noticed that the smaller males with less desirable type tend to have the smaller, better shaped combs. There was a cockerel that I'm still growing out from a Fall hatch that had such a nice comb and I had hopes that he would turn out well but he's looking scrawny and too pinched in the tail now.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

My goal is to breed for production as well as to maintain the SOP as best I can. Because I'm starting out, I have no idea what the offspring will be like- and I'm trying to breed for a better egg shape (the eggs are too long). But I don't really know how to do that, other than choose the hens with the best conformation, and then cull for the best layers, and then cull for the best egg shape. Does anyone have any advice for me, how to get all three qualities? Is that the best way to do this? How could I reach my goals the quickest?
Until I can import some Buckeyes, I have pretty well all the genes represented from all the stock that's available in Canada, and that's all I have to work with for now. Unfortunately most of the Buckeyes are in Western Canada, I just got 21/2 dozen eggs and most were scrambled in the courier. Looks like a few are developing, but I might only get a couple of chicks if I'm lucky.
Is it possible that I can never reach my goals with the available stock, or given enough time, do you think I could eventually get there? Is there any way to know if your stock's genes are so limited, that you can never do better?

For example, let's say I crossed my best prospects, hatched 100 chicks, raised the hens, and none of them laid a rounded egg- would that be enough information to tell me that it would be pointless to continue with these crosses? How many generations does it take before you give up? I don't mean to sound defeatist or negative, but I don't want to spend years breeding just to end up here

if I can find out ahead of time.

 

[Wisher1000]

@CanadianBuckeye It is hard to begin a breeding program without research and patience.

When I started, I was told that most people who embark on breeding poultry to standard are on to something else within five years. I made a personal commitment to my breed, the Campine, to work hard at it for a minimum of five years and to allow myself to re-evaluate my commitment at that point. I am there now, and have no intentions of stopping. The progress is slow and this hobby is not for people who cannot accept uncertain, delayed gratification.

You need to read all you can find on selective poultry breeding, and talk to some successful breeders (not internet experts) and learn as you go. Mixing lines is not usually the best strategy, it causes lots of undesirable traits to rear their ugly heads.

Maybe you should evaluate your dedication and expectations for this breed. I've said it before..... you will be more successful if the breed you are working with makes your toes curl whenever you look at them.

Good luck! I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.

 

[bnjrob]

My goal is to breed for production as well as to maintain the SOP as best I can. Because I'm starting out, I have no idea what the offspring will be like- and I'm trying to breed for a better egg shape (the eggs are too long). But I don't really know how to do that, other than choose the hens with the best conformation, and then cull for the best layers, and then cull for the best egg shape. Does anyone have any advice for me, how to get all three qualities? Is that the best way to do this? How could I reach my goals the quickest?
Until I can import some Buckeyes, I have pretty well all the genes represented from all the stock that's available in Canada, and that's all I have to work with for now. Unfortunately most of the Buckeyes are in Western Canada, I just got 21/2 dozen eggs and most were scrambled in the courier. Looks like a few are developing, but I might only get a couple of chicks if I'm lucky.
Is it possible that I can never reach my goals with the available stock, or given enough time, do you think I could eventually get there? Is there any way to know if your stock's genes are so limited, that you can never do better?

For example, let's say I crossed my best prospects, hatched 100 chicks, raised the hens, and none of them laid a rounded egg- would that be enough information to tell me that it would be pointless to continue with these crosses? How many generations does it take before you give up? I don't mean to sound defeatist or negative, but I don't want to spend years breeding just to end up here

if I can find out ahead of time.

Wisher is right about the research. Have you downloaded any of the antique poultry books from archive.org, Hathitrust, and google books? That has been the most helpful to me since I don't have any poultry breeders to talk to. I did find out that there are some judges within what I consider to be an ok driving distance that at some point I am going to see if I can pay one of them to come out and look at my birds and chat with me.

If you cull just for one trait at a time, you're more likely to wind up NOT getting what you want. If you cull for conformation first, you could wind up with getting nothing but bad layers. It's better to go down the middle of the road and make compromises. Which makes it go slower.

There just isn't a way to get stuff done fast if you want production and appearance. You have to make tradeoffs. If you have one thing that is uniform among them, then that can be the lowest priority while you make a compromise on the other traits that aren't quite so uniform among all your breeder choices. You might use a lighter weight bird than you normally would want in order to get better egg production or better type. And you get the heavier bird that represents your meat production but maybe doesn't lay quite as well or doesn't have the best type.

It took us three years of to see our best improvement in meat production - to where we could butcher them at about 6 months and get the same dressed carcass weight as what our first birds had to be a year old or older to dress out to the same weight. Egg laying has been pretty uniform and acceptable to us, so we've put more emphasis on their size and type, because their SOP was written so that size and type is what gives them their meat production qualities. And so far egg production has not suffered by putting a slight bit more emphasis on the size/type/meat aspect.

There is just nothing that fast if you ask them to do both production and appearance.

I don't know that hatching a large volume at one time would get you the info about the egg shape because you just can't fix the problems so quickly. I would be putting the eggs down side by side and maybe even tracing them onto paper and choosing to hatch the eggs that had the roundest shape. Yes, you seem to have the more bullet shaped ones overall, but there may be some subtle differences if you study them very closely and if you made sure to always choose the ones that were the fattest/shortest, that should get you away from the long skinny shape - but I have no idea how long that might take. I had one more space for an egg in the incubator last night and I was sitting there comparing the two eggs that were the freshest laid, nitpicking the eggs to death to decide exactly which one would make the cut.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

@CanadianBuckeye It is hard to begin a breeding program without research and patience.

When I started, I was told that most people who embark on breeding poultry to standard are on to something else within five years. I made a personal commitment to my breed, the Campine, to work hard at it for a minimum of five years and to allow myself to re-evaluate my commitment at that point. I am there now, and have no intentions of stopping. The progress is slow and this hobby is not for people who cannot accept uncertain, delayed gratification.

You need to read all you can find on selective poultry breeding, and talk to some successful breeders (not internet experts) and learn as you go. Mixing lines is not usually the best strategy, it causes lots of undesirable traits to rear their ugly heads.

Maybe you should evaluate your dedication and expectations for this breed. I've said it before..... you will be more successful if the breed you are working with makes your toes curl whenever you look at them.

Good luck! I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.

Wisher is right about the research. Have you downloaded any of the antique poultry books from archive.org, Hathitrust, and google books? That has been the most helpful to me since I don't have any poultry breeders to talk to. I did find out that there are some judges within what I consider to be an ok driving distance that at some point I am going to see if I can pay one of them to come out and look at my birds and chat with me.

If you cull just for one trait at a time, you're more likely to wind up NOT getting what you want. If you cull for conformation first, you could wind up with getting nothing but bad layers. It's better to go down the middle of the road and make compromises. Which makes it go slower.

There just isn't a way to get stuff done fast if you want production and appearance. You have to make tradeoffs. If you have one thing that is uniform among them, then that can be the lowest priority while you make a compromise on the other traits that aren't quite so uniform among all your breeder choices. You might use a lighter weight bird than you normally would want in order to get better egg production or better type. And you get the heavier bird that represents your meat production but maybe doesn't lay quite as well or doesn't have the best type.

It took us three years of to see our best improvement in meat production - to where we could butcher them at about 6 months and get the same dressed carcass weight as what our first birds had to be a year old or older to dress out to the same weight. Egg laying has been pretty uniform and acceptable to us, so we've put more emphasis on their size and type, because their SOP was written so that size and type is what gives them their meat production qualities. And so far egg production has not suffered by putting a slight bit more emphasis on the size/type/meat aspect.

There is just nothing that fast if you ask them to do both production and appearance.

I don't know that hatching a large volume at one time would get you the info about the egg shape because you just can't fix the problems so quickly. I would be putting the eggs down side by side and maybe even tracing them onto paper and choosing to hatch the eggs that had the roundest shape. Yes, you seem to have the more bullet shaped ones overall, but there may be some subtle differences if you study them very closely and if you made sure to always choose the ones that were the fattest/shortest, that should get you away from the long skinny shape - but I have no idea how long that might take. I had one more space for an egg in the incubator last night and I was sitting there comparing the two eggs that were the freshest laid, nitpicking the eggs to death to decide exactly which one would make the cut.

@Wisher1000 So far so good then! I spent a year researching the breeds, and reading as much as I could about breeding/genetics/nutrition, and joined as many forums as I could, to find out where I wanted to be and which breed to go with. The Buckeye seemed like the best dual purpose breed for me, I'm very fond of the few that I do have, I'm expecting a reasonable meatie and a reasonable amount of eggs. mostly I feel what needs improvement is egg shape and this was unexpected- to be truthful I didn't realize before that not every chicken laid an egg shaped egg, having had only the production layer crosses and such before the Buckeyes. Thankfully I am receiving a lot of help from other Buckeye people, including some exceptional breeders, who are unfortunately all located very far from me but they have been willing to coach me from afar.
So I feel pretty confident that I have a good start on the book learning part- but I've realized that the experience part will only come with experience. I fully expected that this would be a ten year project, but it's now year two and due to various glitches, I don't even feel like I have made even a reasonable start. But to give myself credit I've certainly learned an awful lot in two years. Wisher1000, that's very good advice, I'll give it the best shot that I can and then in five years I'll re evaluate my goals- I'll do the best I can with what I have. But it's true, as you say, in all honesty- it would be hard for me not to make any progress for five years and then justify continuing the project. If nothing else I will certainly gain an appreciation for what goes on behind the scenes when someone breeds a good line of their own! And my respect for Nettie Metcalf grows daily. I figure if worst comes to worst, I'll still have a flock of chickens, albeit of somewhat Buckeye looking Buckeyes- and they will still lay some eggs and provide a dinner now and then, and by that point maybe I'll be happy with that.

@bnjrob thanks for that idea, when this hatch of chicks produces eggs, I'll be more stringent with my egg shape culling. If I had to prioritize my list of important things in my Buckeyes, egg shape and quality would be number one on that list.

 

[bnjrob]

@Wisher1000 So far so good then! I spent a year researching the breeds, and reading as much as I could about breeding/genetics/nutrition, and joined as many forums as I could, to find out where I wanted to be and which breed to go with. The Buckeye seemed like the best dual purpose breed for me, I'm very fond of the few that I do have, I'm expecting a reasonable meatie and a reasonable amount of eggs. mostly I feel what needs improvement is egg shape and this was unexpected- to be truthful I didn't realize before that not every chicken laid an egg shaped egg, having had only the production layer crosses and such before the Buckeyes. Thankfully I am receiving a lot of help from other Buckeye people, including some exceptional breeders, who are unfortunately all located very far from me but they have been willing to coach me from afar.
So I feel pretty confident that I have a good start on the book learning part- but I've realized that the experience part will only come with experience. I fully expected that this would be a ten year project, but it's now year two and due to various glitches, I don't even feel like I have made even a reasonable start. But to give myself credit I've certainly learned an awful lot in two years. Wisher1000, that's very good advice, I'll give it the best shot that I can and then in five years I'll re evaluate my goals- I'll do the best I can with what I have. But it's true, as you say, in all honesty- it would be hard for me not to make any progress for five years and then justify continuing the project. If nothing else I will certainly gain an appreciation for what goes on behind the scenes when someone breeds a good line of their own! And my respect for Nettie Metcalf grows daily. I figure if worst comes to worst, I'll still have a flock of chickens, albeit of somewhat Buckeye looking Buckeyes- and they will still lay some eggs and provide a dinner now and then, and by that point maybe I'll be happy with that.

@bnjrob thanks for that idea, when this hatch of chicks produces eggs, I'll be more stringent with my egg shape culling. If I had to prioritize my list of important things in my Buckeyes, egg shape and quality would be number one on that list.

Don't let the time frame and the setbacks get you too discouraged. There is no way to plan for every problem that might happen. If people don't have setbacks, then I have to wonder if they are really serious about breeding because you don't notice problems as much if you aren't paying attention. I've had my share and I know a few others that have had theirs, but you just have to keep going till you see that tiny pin prick of light at the end of the tunnel.

I think there is a lot more setbacks in this work than people want to admit or talk about. I have a theory that we just don't hear about the problems because for one, discussing the reality of poultry raising does not sell poultry products and it would turn off potential buyers if magazines and online sources told the truth about things. Two, people don't like to hear about the hard parts of things, they want the warm fuzzy stuff not the dirty stuff. And three, it can be discouraging and embarrassing to talk about your problems because it can make you feel like a failure.

I wish there was more formal support out there educating people so they weren't feeling like they were floundering. Not everyone knows how to research what they want/need to know, and not everyone can go to poultry shows and be friends with successful breeders to learn from the very start. I like the work that the Livestock Conservancy is doing to promote old breeds, but they make it all seem like it's a bed of roses, instead of showing what it's really like. That's why I keep running across people that claim to want to breed heritage birds, yet they are opposed to culling and not only will they not kill and eat their own birds, but they won't allow people to buy their birds with the intent to eat them. Being a chicken farmer is a glamorous fad these days but nobody is telling these people the truth about how hard it can be.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Don't let the time frame and the setbacks get you too discouraged. There is no way to plan for every problem that might happen. If people don't have setbacks, then I have to wonder if they are really serious about breeding because you don't notice problems as much if you aren't paying attention. I've had my share and I know a few others that have had theirs, but you just have to keep going till you see that tiny pin prick of light at the end of the tunnel.

I think there is a lot more setbacks in this work than people want to admit or talk about. I have a theory that we just don't hear about the problems because for one, discussing the reality of poultry raising does not sell poultry products and it would turn off potential buyers if magazines and online sources told the truth about things. Two, people don't like to hear about the hard parts of things, they want the warm fuzzy stuff not the dirty stuff. And three, it can be discouraging and embarrassing to talk about your problems because it can make you feel like a failure.

I wish there was more formal support out there educating people so they weren't feeling like they were floundering. Not everyone knows how to research what they want/need to know, and not everyone can go to poultry shows and be friends with successful breeders to learn from the very start. I like the work that the Livestock Conservancy is doing to promote old breeds, but they make it all seem like it's a bed of roses, instead of showing what it's really like. That's why I keep running across people that claim to want to breed heritage birds, yet they are opposed to culling and not only will they not kill and eat their own birds, but they won't allow people to buy their birds with the intent to eat them. Being a chicken farmer is a glamorous fad these days but nobody is telling these people the truth about how hard it can be.

Thanks- it's good to hear the failures as well as the successes. I try to keep in the back of my mind, the 1 in 100 "rule" of the good bird- that way I feel a bit better when I look at mine, and realize that the 99 of the 100 will be chicken dinner. And really, I don't blame the people who have been breeding for a long time, when they don't want to sell their stock to newbies- it's very true that when you you're new and starting out, and you get all your information from the popular magazines and sources, it does sound pretty easy, and pretty glamorous. In fact I read an article on Black Javas in some magazine- and of course I had to have a lovely flock like that free ranging on our farm. I figured it would be easy to find some and go from there- ha! I could not have been more wrong. First, there seemed to be none (at least that I could find) in Canada, and then when I located some at Urch's I thought, well I'm all set- and then was shocked

that they didn't ship to Canada. Neither did Sand Hill Preservation.. or anyone else. The magazine made it sound like a fairy tale, as you say, all rosy. I didn't realize that it would take time to build relationships and tons of research, and set backs. But I've come a long way since then. It's a typical case of the longer you're in it, the less and less you realize you know. I miss those early days when I knew just about everything there was to know about chickens! Haa haaa haaaa haaa!!!!!!!

 

[finnfur]

I didn't realize that it would take time to build relationships and tons of research, and set backs. But I've come a long way since then. It's a typical case of the longer you're in it, the less and less you realize you know. I miss those early days when I knew just about everything there was to know about chickens! Haa haaa haaaa haaa!!!!!!!

That statement says your making progress in the right direction.