Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Zanna]

Are you describing grey as I describe smut?

You can improve the rate of feathering of slow feathering breeds by selection. You can do this and expect reasonable and steady improvement. You will not enjoy the speed of the fast feathering gene, unless it is there. Though you could add it.

I read accounts of selecting to improve the feathering of slow feathering Reds. They would select accordingly at specific points like 8 wks.

I would be tempted to introduce the fast feathering gene, on the side, as a side project.

The birds that you guys have are remarkable birds. I would be proud to enjoy a project like them. They are worth discussing.

The few I had with grey in my other line was not what I would describe as smut. The top of the feathers looked white as they should but the underfluff was greyish not white to the skin.

I understand what you are saying about the rate of feathering and truly appreciate your thoughts/input. I feel strongly right now that we just need to keep trying to make the best selections without adding another line or breed, at least for another generation or so. I may think completely differently after this coming season or the next, time will tell.

A side project is a thought and entirely possible with the group of us working together here in Oregon.

When I look at the pics. of my old line I have no doubts that I made the right choice to give them up and solely work with this line although maybe keeping a Cock or two would have proven helpful. Hindsight..........

Agreed that this line is remarkable and I am so thrilled to have been given the chance to work with them!

 

[gjensen]

The few I had with grey in my other line was not what I would describe as smut. The top of the feathers looked white as they should but the underfluff was greyish not white to the skin.

I understand what you are saying about the rate of feathering and truly appreciate your thoughts/input. I feel strongly right now that we just need to keep trying to make the best selections without adding another line or breed, at least for another generation or so. I may think completely differently after this coming season or the next, time will tell.

A side project is a thought and entirely possible with the group of us working together here in Oregon.

When I look at the pics. of my old line I have no doubts that I made the right choice to give them up and solely work with this line although maybe keeping a Cock or two would have proven helpful. Hindsight..........

Agreed that this line is remarkable and I am so thrilled to have been given the chance to work with them!

What you are describing, I call smut. I am not saying that I am correct using the term. It is just what I always called it. It was so pervasive in my Catalanas, among some other things, that I had to start a side project.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I'm on my phone or I'd fetch up photos of @Zanna's former line to compare.

I think there used to be a breeder working with some version of this same line of project birds that said they were super fast and everyone else was nuts (paraphrasing). But he didn't offer much in terms of photos and proof and stuff. The other people I've spoken to with these birds find them slow. I broody raise, so it doesn't bother me much. But if I was having to coddle them myself for extra weeks, I'd lose patience.

I keep trying to talk Zanna into repeating the experiment in the 1956 paper, crossing her Delawares with her New Hampshires (on the side, of course) and hatching out 2000 birds to get 10 to work with for a fast feathering sideline project.

But for some reason she's not into that.

There has been some good discussion of various lines over at the Delaware Breeder Club Facebook page. That could help if we do get to the point where we are ready to start a side project.

 

[gjensen]

No one would have to hatch 2000 to get a few. LOL.

It is a simple sex linked recessive. It really is elementary now that we know.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

... So is it the Barring that slows down the feather? ...

No, but the barring gene is on the same chromosome as most of the feather-growth-rate genes. There are fast, medium, slow and very slow feather-growth-rate genes. Getting the tiny, crisp bars of the exhibition-strain Barred Rocks requires the barring gene plus the very-slow-feather-growth gene.

As Mr. Jensen has already said, the NHs contributed a fast feathering gene, it just has to be appreciated and preserved in the subsequent generations.

What I saw in my Wyandottes were that some were fully feathered at 4 weeks, some fully feathered at 8 weeks, and some tailless or half naked at 8 weeks. I kept chicks from the first 2 groups, and will gradually improve feathering rates as well as half a dozen other important utility and cosmetic traits.

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[Wisher1000]

Here is my (purely theoretical) opinion, based on my reading, not on actually owning any of the strains in question.

As I understand it, it requires the barring gene plus at least one slow-feather-growth gene to make the crisp barred look of a show/SOP Barred Rock. If you combine the barring gene with fast feather growth, you get the slurred cuckoo pattern, like a Dominique. I believe the BR barring is sex-linked, and I am certain most slow-feather-growth genes are sex-linked, so it may be difficulty to separate slow feathering from barring, (unless you started with a slurred BR.) I don't believe the Columbian (color distribution) gene is responsible for the slow feathering in the Delaware, I think it hails from the slow-feathering sex-linked BR barring.
Quote:
Angela, this is also my understanding of the mechanics of barring/cockoo based on a conversation with Yellowhousefarm and follow-up research on my own. Joseph explained (in simple terms so I could understand) that the pattern gene causes the color to turn on and off at specific intervals and that the width of the bars are determined by the rate of feather growth which is determined by the other gene. I have had to try to understand these genetic traits for proper barring/penciling on my Campines. So far, I am only a beginner student, I hope to grasp a more detailed understanding of these genes as I continue to research.

I, too, have enjoyed this discussion.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

Angela, this is also my understanding of the mechanics of barring/cockoo based on a conversation with Yellowhousefarm and follow-up research on my own. Joseph explained (in simple terms so I could understand) that the pattern gene causes the color to turn on and off at specific intervals and that the width of the bars are determined by the rate of feather growth which is determined by the other gene. I have had to try to understand these genetic traits for proper barring/penciling on my Campines. So far, I am only a beginner student, I hope to grasp a more detailed understanding of these genes as I continue to research.

I, too, have enjoyed this discussion.

Yes, that is how I understand the barring gene works. If I remember correctly, Campines have autosomal barring, not sex-linked barring. (The males and females are the same "darkness" right?)
Angela

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

You guys got me curious about when the "fast feathering" was lost from the project line Delawares I'm working with.

The simplified version: The project started as a straight New Hampshire to Barred Plymouth Rock cross in like 2011/12??? I think there is only one type of bird produced by the initial cross (F1 stage), those are mated together. The F2 chicks are carefully selected for color (and there won't be very many of the right color, so you can't be super choosy), to produce the F3s. The F3s should produce both sexes of Delawares. I believe Kathy choose the best of the F3s to use to produce the F4 chicks that she sent out to various breeders around the country.

I only know of like 3 breeders that got those F4s that are still working with them. There may be more, but I can't get that information.

I've asked those three breeders if any of their F4s were faster feathering, or their F5s, or their F6s.

I started with a trio of F4s. I haven't noticed any feathering FASTER than the others, they have been slower than my mutts. This year (F6s) I had a bird or two that seemed to feather even more slowly.

I don't feel I'm at a stage yet where I CAN be choosy about feather rate, I have to look at other things. But the notion that fast feathering is SIMPLE got me thinking what mistakes I've made in my ignorance.

 

[Wisher1000]

Quote:

Yes, that is how I understand the barring gene works. If I remember correctly, Campines have autosomal barring, not sex-linked barring. (The males and females are the same "darkness" right?)
Angela

Yes, that's right, at least they're supposed to be.

I do get some dark charcoal grey birds, usually the females. I will use them if they are good otherwise, but they are "second or third string."

 

[Zanna]

You guys got me curious about when the "fast feathering" was lost from the project line Delawares I'm working with.

The simplified version: The project started as a straight New Hampshire to Barred Plymouth Rock cross in like 2011/12??? I think there is only one type of bird produced by the initial cross (F1 stage), those are mated together. The F2 chicks are carefully selected for color (and there won't be very many of the right color, so you can't be super choosy), to produce the F3s. The F3s should produce both sexes of Delawares. I believe Kathy choose the best of the F3s to use to produce the F4 chicks that she sent out to various breeders around the country.

I only know of like 3 breeders that got those F4s that are still working with them. There may be more, but I can't get that information.

I've asked those three breeders if any of their F4s were faster feathering, or their F5s, or their F6s.

I started with a trio of F4s. I haven't noticed any feathering FASTER than the others, they have been slower than my mutts. This year (F6s) I had a bird or two that seemed to feather even more slowly.

I don't feel I'm at a stage yet where I CAN be choosy about feather rate, I have to look at other things. But the notion that fast feathering is SIMPLE got me thinking what mistakes I've made in my ignorance.

Do you all think that we have "lost" the fast feathering gene from the NH or is it still there? I had not figured that it was gone but I need to rethink things if that is even a possibility. One thing I have put a lot of thought into is that is this slow feathering really a problem? NYReds, a judge who no longer participates here got some of Kathy's f-4's. He stated that he did not think they were slow feathering at all but he would not expand on that. Maybe the birds he got still had the gene but everyone else that I know of that has these birds has been concerned with the slow feathering.

If we incorporate faster feathering if we decide that yes, that is a big priority at some point, will we lose the lovely barring we are getting on some of the males tails? What else might we be sacrificing?

Because the feathering is slow (seemingly to me!) it takes a long time to be able to tell the male chicks from females. In my old line I could tell almost 100% by week two because of the colour on the feathers coming in. Again, is that important? Probably not but it was sure nice!