How did YOU train your dog to leave chickens alone?

[ChickensRDinos]

It seems that good basic obenience training is pretty key to this topic. What trainers/methods do you all recommend? I've noted the Patricia McConnell reference already, but what other books/dvds/systems do you find to be most effective?

For general postive-based obedience training and someone who's videos are easy to find I really like Victoria Stilwell.

 

[SunsetMeadow]

My poodle doesn't want to learn basic obedience, she only does what I tell her if I have food, so it looks like she'll never get along with the chickens

 

[ChickensRDinos]

It takes a lot of time and patience and a daily commitment to train a dog well. When I did food training with one of my harder rescue dogs it took me and hour and a half to feed her every night for more than a week. Repeat, repeat, repeat until it is right.

If you are struggling with basic training it might be a good idea to talk to a professional trainer or enroll in a basic training group class. They can generally be found inexpensively.

 

[SunsetMeadow]

It takes a lot of time and patience and a daily commitment to train a dog well. When I did food training with one of my harder rescue dogs it took me and hour and a half to feed her every night for more than a week. Repeat, repeat, repeat until it is right.

If you are struggling with basic training it might be a good idea to talk to a professional trainer or enroll in a basic training group class. They can generally be found inexpensively.

Well, then I'll try to find a group, thanks

 

[sktlmt]

When I got my first chicks my St Bernard was 7 years old. She was a rescue and as she ages she has become very motherly. I placed the brooder box on the floor where she could see and smell them and when she would start to get excited and drool a little too much I would tell her they are chicks and not food. Every day I would hold the chicks and let her smell them. Once the chicks were about 6 weeks and spending time outside she would lie down by the cage to keep them safe. She thinks of them as her babies and not food.

 

[skeezix05]

Don't forget that if there are three or more, than they usually consider themselves a pack and act like one. Just a thought to consider.

 

[kaitbray]

OK, you asked for it (some members may be sick of seeing this). Here's my method in full. Enjoy.

Chicken Guardian Training

The following is an outline of a training program we have used to train our dogs to be guardians of the chickens.  Or, at the very least not to attack the chickens.

We have seven chickens and four ducks on a one acre fenced yard.  We had more birds but the fox and bobcat relieved us of them.  The birds are strictly layers and are free range.

We have five dogs (2 Labs, 1 Great Pyrenees, 1 Brittany/Border Collie mix, 1 Australian Shepherd), all of whom are good with the birds. We got the Pyr and Brittany as a puppies and it is their training that we are using as a model. The other dogs we adopted at a much older age (3 over the years). We never had a problem with any of them attacking the birds, but they are pretty obedient.  Our training also has worked with a visiting Papillion puppy, which learned the rules about the chickens in a couple of days.

Puppy Training

Our training method is similar to how a Livestock Guardian Dog (LGD) is trained.  The difference is we are training the dog to guard chickens not sheep.  So, the demands of this training are a bit easier.  All we need the dog to do is guard a fenced area and to not eat or chase the chickens. Simple, right?

Well, as one might imagine, puppies like to chase feathery objects that make interesting sounds, run, flap their wings and fly a mere three feet off the ground; what fun.  A key factor in the training is to break the association of chicken with fun.  It is a sort of socialization process.  Here’s how it goes:

Level 1

1. Once house broken, the puppy sleeps in a crate in the chicken coop.
2. The puppy eats meals near the chickens.  We do this by feeding the dog next to the chicken coop with the birds near.
3. Chicken chores are done with the puppy tethered to you (on a leash). 
4. No playing is allowed.  All other dogs or playmates (children, etc) are not allowed in the area when the puppy is “working” with the chickens. 
5. The puppy is not allowed to chase the chickens.  Any attempts are corrected with a snap of the leash and a bark-like “NO”.
6. Closely watched bird introductions are done.  With the puppy on a leash, we hold a bird and allow the puppy to calmly sniff the bird.  Excited attempts to “play” with the bird are reprimanded.  We are trying to desensitize the dog to the birds, so this is done many times.

Our puppies get crate trained for various reasons, one of which is so that they can sleep with the chickens.  We have the “luxury” of having a large chicken “coop”, hence plenty of room for two dogs to sleep next to the chicken roost.  If you don’t have that kind of room in the coop, I would hesitate to crate a dog outside next to the coop.  The crate needs to be a safe place for the dog and that doesn’t sound safe.  An alternative might be to construct a dog run in or near a chicken run.  Or, you can skip the cohabitation portion of the training and increase the amount of leashed socialization with the birds. 

Once Level 1 is working well – this can take a few weeks - we move to Level 2:

Level 2

Most of Level 1 still applies, except now we try some limited “off leash” interaction with the puppy and birds.  All contact must be closely supervised.  It is important that the dog is responding to your commands to not pursue the birds.  Commands like “NO” and “Leave It” should be understood by the dog.  Obedience of the dog is the critical factor. 

If a chase does begin, one technique used to show your disapproval is to bark a “NO” and approach the dog in a stern manner.  I often glare at the dog.  This is similar to how an adult dog reprimands a puppy.  For this to work you must be close and watchful of the dog.

Level 2 progresses with more time with the dog with the birds.  The goal is for the dog to ignore the birds.  No stalking, no excited lunges as birds dart around or fly to a roost, no staring imagining how tasty they might be, nothing.  By the end, the dog shouldn’t even look at the birds and if she does she should be reprimanded, LEAVE IT!

Level 3

This level isn’t really so much a new level.  At some point the dog is left off the leash with the birds.  In this level you begin to increase the distance between you and the dog.  Hence, the dog is left essentially alone with the chickens, but you are watching from afar to observe and discipline.  Important for getting to this point is that the dog obeys enough to stop any bad behavior from a simple, one word command … NO!

Level 3 lasts a long, long time.  As the weeks turn into months, you naturally gain more trust in the dog and spend less time watching over the flock.  How long until the “training” ends seems to be determined by how quickly the dog matures and how well the dog obeys (which also seems to be related to maturity level). 

Fluffy (the Pyr) took probably all of 1.5 years before she was calm enough to stop chasing the birds.  Molly (Brittany mix) was completely trustworthy with the birds in a couple of months. But as is common for Brittanys, she is incredibly sensitive to criticism.  Simply raising your voice is enough to make this sweet dog sink to the ground, hence she usually aims to please.

Great Pyrenees

The Pyrs will not mature and become flock protectors until they are at least one and a half years old.  Until then, one needs to supervise ALL interaction between the dogs and any fragile livestock.  These dogs grow big, fast, and can easily kill a chicken in play or other behavior.

The Drag

One problem with Pyrs is that they love to run around and chase other animals; this includes the birds.  Fluffy loved to chase the geese when she was at Level 3.  She wasn’t being aggressive, but the birds do not do well when something that large runs full speed at them.  Hence, we borrowed a tool used from LGD training with dogs that tend to run away from their flock of sheep.  It is called a drag.

The drag is a piece of wood on a tether attached to the dog’s collar.  It is meant to interfere and make running difficult.  I’ve seen a couple of drag designs.  Our drag dangled right in front of Fluffy’s chest.  The chain was only about four inches long and the log was the foot or so long. I used a chain because Fluffy would have chewed through a rope in a couple of minutes.  I’ve read about the longer drags, but I wasn’t comfortable having something on a longer tether.  I was afraid it could get tangled around her legs or something else or would not be in the right position when she started to run.  In practice the drag length I used ended up getting in between her front legs and caused her to run bowlegged which slowed her down, but it didn’t hit her legs too hard.  I think the drag in the front also helped to discourage the jumping on the fence and possible escape attempts.

It is unclear if the drag actual prevent any chasing of the geese, but it did slow her down a bit.

Shock Collars

When our Pyrenees, Fluffy, was a puppy we came to a point where we couldn’t handle her behavior anymore.  She was chasing the geese, barking, jumping and climbing over the fencing and ignoring all commands (Pyrs love that game).  I bought a shock collar.  I never used it and ended up returning it to the store the next day.  I did a little research on the shock collars and found that dog trainers don’t recommend their use if you are not trained to do so.  It is very tricky to use them correctly.

But, the main reason I didn’t use the collar was because of Fluffy.  She’s a sensitive (emotionally) dog and I feel like she would take physical punishment hard.  Hurting my poor puppy to MAKE her do what I wanted her to do was not the kind of relationship I wanted between us.  She was just doing what puppies do, so instead I started to work with her more.  In the end, she grew up and now is a great dog.  Heck we even talk about getting another Pyr one day (maybe).  So, I’m pleased that I didn’t use the shock collar.  I believe we have a better dog for it.

I question the effectiveness of the shock collars and physical punishment as training tool.  The shock from the collar doesn’t have any correlation to the action you are trying to stop.  It’s not like the chicken whacked the dog on the head.  Some unseen force zapped the dog.  The dog is left clueless as to why, how or what she should do now.  And, for me to whack the dog because she caught a chicken is equally as puzzling to dog.  The dogs simply do not understand the rules people are taught.  You can’t sit the dog down and explain, “If you do this again, I’m going to whack you.  So, don’t do it again.  OK”.   In the end, I think it’s easy to end up with a very confused dog.

Adult Dog Training

It can be hard to train an older dog to except the chickens.  But, we firmly believe it’s possible.  It takes time and patience, but the payoff is great.  I, for one, love the freedom of letting the girls (chickens) out in the morning before I rush off to work, knowing that they are safe with the dogs.  After hearing all of the problems people have had with predators, we think a wonderful solution it is to have dependable flock guardians. 

The breed of the dog can be a factor for successful training. But, the most important factor for training is the dog’s behavior and willingness to serve.  We have three BIRD dogs, heck, they’re bred to hunt down the very thing we’ve asked them to ignore.  One of our dogs, Nutmeg, had a very extreme prey drive.  We thought for sure she would attack our birds.  But, what Nutmeg valued most was her people.  All we needed to do was socialize her with the birds and us.  Once she understood that the birds were something we cared about, all was good.

We suggest that starting from square one.  Obedience is key.  Start training your dogs with the basics.  Go to the library and check out every book on obedience training.  (Patricia McConnell is one of our favorites!) Your goal is to have a dog that can compete in an obedience trial (I believe in setting lofty goals and then falling somewhat short).  Your dog should look to you as the center of their world.  Once your dog looks to you for direction, you are in charge.  If you love your dog (and your chickens) you will take charge of your dog.

Once, we got the little six month old puppy (Brittanys are great BIRD dogs) I literally walked around with a bag of dog treats on me (I use their dog food kibble).  There are numerous times during the day that I give commands to the dogs.  The dogs must WAIT before crossing a doorway, as commanded.  SIT before getting food.  To gain this obedience, I reward generously, hence the bag of treats. 

One day the puppy, Molly, was watching, staring at the birds.  This is not acceptable at her stage of training.  I gave her a HEY and a NO command while she was doing this.  Once she broke her stare, I gave her a reward.  Eventually she learned that it’s better to ignore the birds (you get treats).  But, all of this takes time.  We believe it’s better to reward than to punish, it just make a more dependable dog.

Until the dog has completed level 2 you need to separate the birds and dogs.  All of our training would go down the tubes if the dog finds out that the chickens are not only fun to chase, but tasty. So, when we got our Molly, for several months the chickens go into the “Chicken Tractor” to allow the puppy to romp and be a puppy.  The chickens were let out everyday out for a couple of hours of roaming.  At that point the puppy is either watched outside or is inside.  As part of the program, the puppy slept and ate with the birds.

Discipline

[SIZE=11pt]Even though our dogs are going to be mostly farm dogs, obedience is important and there are some commands that are very useful for them to know. [/SIZE]

There’s two commands that the dogs need to know when it come to the chickens; “NO” and LEAVE IT”.  NO means to stop what you are doing and LEAVE IT means that this thing is off limits.  Here’s how I teach these.

I’m sure you are thinking NO is an easy one; every dog seems to learn NO very quickly.  But, we chicken farmers need NO to stop our dogs in their tracks as they are running full speed after a bird.  Here’s what I suggest (I’m borrowing some of this from McConnell’s book).  Have treats ready (I use dog food kibble) in a pocket or bag.  With the dog on a leash, sit with the dog in the chicken yard.  Any time the dog gets too curious about the chickens, make a loud noise to distract the dog and deliver the NO command in a low, growl like tone.  There will be a split second where the dog will be distracted, at this point reward the dog with a treat presented right at her nose.  For me, this ends up being a quick HEY (to startle the dog), a growling NO and a treat.  Also, I used the treat to lure the dog in a different direction.  And, at all times when the dog is with the chickens, I am holding the leash.

In my opinion the tone of the NO is important.  It needs to sound like the deep, low frequency growl of a Great Pyrenees.  I believe men have an easier time producing this tone.  My dear wife often gets excited.  Her NO ends up to be more of a high pitched scream, which can be counterproductive by riling up the dog.  You can tell if your NO is effective if the dog seems startled and looks at you with a questioning expression. 

Well, that’s plenty on NO.  LEAVE IT is taught differently.  This is little cruel, but it doesn’t take very long to teach.  With treat in hand, I let the dog see it and present it were the dog can get it.  I then deliver the command LEAVE IT in a stern, low tone.  If the dog tries to take the treat, he gets hit with my other hand under his jaw.  This is very startling for the dog, so the force does need to more that a tap, but the action must be quick.  If the dog obeys, I give him the treat after a couple of seconds.  A while later, I’ll try it again.  Usually, LEAVE IT is pretty much understood after the first or second time.  The command is useful when your lunch is sitting on the counter or the dog is sniffing a chicken.

[SIZE=11pt]Recall or Come is also important to teach.  One way to teach it is to make it a game.  Dogs often do not approach people who are looking directly at them, but they love to chase people.  Also, the dog will not come if he thinks you are going to punish him or do something unpleasant; like giving her a bath.  So, try this, call the dog in a fun, exciting voice and then turn around and start trotting away from the dog.  Praise the dog as she starts to come and when she catches up with you praise her and give her a good treat.  Sometimes you can entice a dog to come just by turning your head to side.  Remember, not to do anything the dog doesn’t like immediately after she comes.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Our dogs love to have the leash put on.  In fact, if one gets leashed, the other dogs get upset and whine.  That’s because only good thing happen when the leash gets put on.  We go for walks or for car rides or we practice HEEL (which entails LOTS of treats) or visit our cousins, etc.  And, the guy holding the leash does his best to never, ever pull the leash.  Instead, I just stand still when the puppy pulls on the leash.  When she finally stops and turns around to look at me, she gets a treat.  This is hard for me, because I feel the need to pull the dog back, but that just turns into a tug of war.  I can win that game with a puppy, but not with a 120 lbs Pyr. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]There is technique of “snapping” the leash.  I think I finally learned this one. It’s like cracking a whip.  What it does is jingle the connection of leash to the collar and causes the dog to turn around as if to say “What the heck are you doing”.  To do this right, there is no pulling of the dog, so it takes a little practice, but it does work to get their attention.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]We would suggest that to establish yourself as Alpha, is a little different then the way people used to think about it.  If you watch my Alpha dog, you would notice that she never attacks the other dogs.  She has established her status by being calm, large, confident and in control.  You can do the same by controlling food (meals should be on a schedule and treats given for only good behavior), being the one who feeds them, being quiet (Alpha dogs do not bark at the other dogs in the pack, but they do growl when needed) and when you do need to reprimand, be benevolent, fair and use a low, growl like tone.  It is apparently rare for an Alpha to fight or attack the other dogs, so no hitting of the dog (body/hip checks are OK ).  Apparently, it is often the Beta dogs that fight.[/SIZE]

How Did We Do?

How did we do?  Well, Fluffy, our Great Pyrenees puppy is now 5 years old.  Our chickens run free with the five dogs in a fenced-in acre of yard.  At some point after our little program, she apparently attacked a chicken.  We expressed our displeasure and took the bird to the vet.  After which we have never had a problem.  As testament to the breed, we have never had a predator loss with Fluffy on guard duty.  She barks a lot, but keeps the fox and bobcat away.  It is not as if she actively watches over the chickens, but they happen to be in her territory which she keeps rather secure. 

The Labs on the other hand have been rather useless in guarding the flock. They prefer to lie near the door and beg to come in or to get a treat.

Molly had achieved Level 2 with two weeks of training.  She progressed quickly and after a few months was out with the birds unsupervised. We have had her for several years and have never had her attack a bird. 

Part of this could be that she was raised with three dogs that already were chicken trained.  When we began to cage a new batch of chicklets outside, Fluffy demonstrated some actual flock guardian behavior.  Molly was a little too interested in the “Chicken Tractor” full of fluffy chicks.  In an act that we can only describe as being concerned, Fluffy laid in front of the Chicken Tractor, placing herself between Molly and the cage.  Fluffy was also observed to confront Molly when she approached the chicks.  We didn’t believe she was actually trying to protect the chicks from Molly until she did this several times.  Fluffy hadn’t acted like this before, nor has she done so since.

The chicks are several months old now and the range free with the other chickens.  Molly is know to actually walk around the chickens and has never attacked them.  So, it appears that our training has been successful.

Hope it helps,

Jim

Do you think this approach will work with an 11 month old Great Dane. He has killed chickens by rough housing with them 4x in 4 months. I have tried numerous methods to alter this behaviour.

1) taught him to sit, stay, come. Used these commands all over my land, throughout the day and in various situations.

2) put him on his chain/ kennel for a few days after a kill, with no social interaction just food and water

3) tied the killed chickens around his neck and chained/kenneled him for a few days after another kill

These are all different methods people have suggested that have apparently worked for them but it's not working for me. Some of the methods seem cruel but in desperation to train my dog to keep him from being shot by a neighbor nothing seemed too cruel. I would love to have him trained just like the dogs in the above examples as my next attempt in culling his behaviour.

Have I already messed everything up for my dog with my previous methods or can I still be successful with this new approach?

And are some dogs just untrainable? I'm willing to take the time to train but I don't want to get into it for months and then be disappointed in the end :/

 

[lindalouly]

6 year old American pitbull who is well trained and is well socialized. I had my dogs spend time with the chicks (supervised) when they were still in the house. I started with rubbing the chick upon the fur of the dog. I would allow them to sniff but would say no when they licked... I was consistent and did this often until I could put the chick on the dogs and they just ignored it. When the chicks got transferred outside I supervised the dogs closely and corrected the dogs when I noticed temptation... I do not correct my dogs physically... Hitting a pitbull makes for a mean dog. The dogs and chickens are always together now unsupervised. They protect them and heard them from danger.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

I wI'll attaché a reply I wrote to another, similar thread. Finding the right training method for my dog took a lot of trial and error. Training her these things also took a ton of work. Daily, consistent work. When you are training a dog you have to be consistent all the time because if you start to slack the dog will start to think whatever behavior it was doing is ok again.

Tying a chicken around a dog's neck and throwing them in a kennel IS cruel because the dog cannot understand that as punishment for killing a chicken. whether you use correction or positive reinforcement, it's needs to be done immediately after the behavior. Leaving a dog in a kennel for days with no interaction just makes for a sad dog, but not a dog who understands why he is in that situation in the first place. Same for tying the chicken around the neck.

I found that using treats to take attention off distractions wasn't working for me. Using a choker collar worked much better and more consistently. It's a good starting point but you need training to go with it. None of the methods I will post can be applied as a quick fix. The dog MUST understand you. If the dog is confused or not responding to a method, then you have to take a step back and re-evaluate your methods or make it a bit easier. Set your dog up to succeed. It will be a lot less frustrating in the end for both of you. Also, little steps are the key. Going to fast will frustrate both of you.

Here's my response on the other thread:

I have a mixed breed dog I adopted a year ago and i was having a lot of trouble with her chasing deer and squirrels. It hasn't ever been a huge issue but I was really hoping to one day let her off the leash for hikes, but with her history, I just couldn't take a chance.

I ended up working with a couple trainers through my school. Most of them use positive reinforcement for situations like that, and that works for a lot of people. Basically you treat them for looking at you instead of the distraction (cat, squirrel, etc). What I was finding was that as soon as I ran out of treats, our training sessions became a free for all. When first introducing the dog to our cat at my parents' house, I saw this method was reinforcing her to chase whatever it was I was trying to stop her from chasing.

One trainer suggested I look into an electronic collar as a sort of safeguard against running away if I was to start letting her off the leash. The more I researched it, the more I realized that many hunters train their dogs with these devices. So working under the guidance of a that trainer, I began getting her used to wearing the collar (I spent money on a good one with several settings). It has taken a lot of work and consistency, but I am finally seeing the results paying off. I've hardly had to use the shock function, and now I usually just use the beep function. She knows that if she hears the beep, she must return to me.

This has also worked great for training with the chickens. she actually doesn't bother them now, whether I have treats or not. I trained her with both a stop command (sort of a "freeze" command, which is awesome for situations like when a dog is running into the street or one time when she heard a loud noise and tried to run to the house before I could get to her) and I've worked really hard to get a solid recall. These two commands are really great to work on, no matter the method you use! I use the clicker with her a lot also, and she responds awesome with that.

What might work best for you is paying for a session or two with a trainer who uses methods you think will work best for your dog. It's really not too bad to pay for them (some trainers are more than others, but I really think this is worth it in the long run). I don't recommend using an electronic collar without guidance or copious research. If an owner is unsure of what they are doing, you definitely can't expect the dog to understand either. I also like to preface by saying that this training method is not for everyone, but it has worked very well for me. My dog very much enjoys her time off leash in the yard and I feel much more confident letting her off the leash. I am very consistent with her, so she is never left wondering what I expect from her.

Just ETA: I definitely agree that some dogs cannot be trained for off leash or to resist distraction and I was ready for that when I began training. I also agree that a tired dog is a happy dog and that could be an important part of a training program.

 

[lindalouly]

Training a dog takes time and patience... All dogs have different personalities. They need to be socialized at a young age and throughout life. They need exercise. They need consistent correction... No hitting or screaming but a nudge and stern no. You have to notice everything. Even the small things like weather the dog enters or leaves a door before you. They need constant love. I don't train with treats... I like to give treats on my terms and don't want my dogs begging. You have to have the time or the man power( it took three of us) to train our dogs cause we all worked... And training is always continual. Get to know your breed and their personality. It will make it easier. Locking up dogs, ignoring dogs, hitting dogs all create aggressiveness. You are the pack leader and they will copy your attitude.