How do I breed a Silver Pied peafowl?

[crystalchik]

Ive read articles about how the silver pied is the white and pied gene working together, but i have white and pied birds and also pieds split to white breeding, and I have never come up with anything more than a pied and white.
Any hints??

 

[Kev]

There were white hens also homozygous for white eye with both silver pied with those males too. Ups the odds. I know those white hens were homozygous white eyed as I bred them myself out of white eyed matings. Also have bred them previously and more recently with other colors such as blue and bronze, all chicks came out white eyed, no normal blue birds resulted. Plus all colored birds from the hens & silver pied males were also white eyed.

Here were the set ups:

First silver pied male in pen with 2 White hens(homozygous for white eye) and 2 White eyed split white hens.

Result of 2 seasons: Lots of white chicks. Some colored birds with white just on flights(split birds). Many pied marked birds.. majority of those had white only on wings and up on the face/upper neck. Minority of the pied marked birds had any amount of white on back. Zero silver pied. This is more than 50 chicks total, easily. Even with real low odds.. should have had at least one silver pied bird.. Notice, I got pied marked birds.. just none of them were silver pied, not even close to it.

Second silver pied male in pen with 4 whites(homozygous white eyed) and one white eyed split white.

Similar results.. lots of white chicks.. colored birds again came out mostly minimal marked pied. Zero silver pied.. more than 50 chicks total.

This is two different silver pied males, 6 of the hens were White, over several seasons. minimum of 100 chicks total from both males. Not one silver pied. reminder- did get pied marked birds, just not silver pied.

When the pied marked daughters from the first silver pied male were put in with this second male, got white, minimal pied and a few silver pied(finally).

Why did I get them out of those daughters and none from the other hens? That's my question.. white eyed was present in all hens.. several of the hens were white.. so, what is it?

*I forgot to add, that the pied offspring also were white eyed(all colored chicks showed white eyed characteristics). They still were far from silver pied. So if the white eye is the magic stuff, how come white eyed pied?

 

[Peafowlssssssss]

Can a silver pied bred to a pied produce a pied looking bird split to silver pied?
Or would this produce white split to either pied or silver pied?
Also
Can you have a white bird carry pied and silver pied at the same time?
These are the things I ponder in the night.

You can't have bird split to pied, pied x silver pied= 50% pied white eye chicks, 25% whites, 25% dark pieds.

Breeding these birds together later should give you some silver pieds, but not when breeding whites together for sure.

 

[KsKingBee]

Dany, insert any color you want before the words Silver Pied and it is still accurate. It doesn't matter what color, they are talking about patterns.

 

[AugeredIn]

I would agree that it looks dark pied white eye or dark silver pied to me but Craig Hopkins has been doing this a loooooonnnng time! Much longer than I have.

 

[Garden Peas]

I would agree that it looks dark pied white eye or dark silver pied to me but Craig Hopkins has been doing this a loooooonnnng time! Much longer than I have.

@AugeredIn , you are so right when you remind us that Craig Hopkins has been at this longer than most of us -- and even more right when you suggest with the tone of your response that this is an argument we don't have to have.

That photo was pulled off of the Hopkins website, but I don't see any indication that anybody asked Craig what his current interpretation of that bird would be. There's about a gazillion things on the Hopkins website, and I seriously doubt if he has time to go back and constantly double-check everything on there. I'd be much more comfortable if the original post either said, "Look at this photo I found on Hopkins' page, what's up with this?" OR "Hey, I checked with Craig Hopkins about this photo of his, which doesn't match my current understanding, and he told me...." Instead, that photo got posted as a kind of "gotcha" -- which is frankly rude.

During the very loooooonnng time that the Hopkins have been raising peafowl, there have been many, many new developments, and lots of increased understanding of peafowl genetics. Some of that has come from cooperative discussions and generous sharing of information. There are many things we still don't understand well. As a historical note, I remember that it wasn't very long ago that we were deciding whether to call a bird "silver pied" based upon the amount and distribution of white on the bird. There are old discussions "out there" which still omit any mention of a white-eye gene. And the term "dark silver pied" is still very, very new -- it would have been an oxymoron when silver pied was measured in percentage of white on a bird.

There is some updated discussion info on the Hopkins site that reflects this new terminology of "dark silver pied," and yes, those photos are also on the site. But my guess is those photos and their labels may well have been there since the days when that bird would have properly carried that nomenclature. So before anyone goes suggesting that Craig Hopkins isn't correct, maybe the person that flashed the photo with the tag "Craig Hopkins says..." might actually ask him?

 

[Henk69]

I understand that silver pied is the "white eyed" gene and the pied gene working together!

Male "white eyed" peacocks have white centered ocelli in their tail.
Both genders have a white patch on thier throat.

http://peacockgirl.tripod.com/Peafowl_Variet/Silver_Piedx.html

 

[Kev]

This may get more responses in the peafowl section?

Henk69, That's what people say.. but I have had white eyed without the white on throat or wingtips. Every white eyed with white in those areas I bought proved to be split white- 50/50 white and white eyed chicks when bred with a white....

Crystalchik, that breeding plan really concerns pied breeding.. it works for both 'regular' pied and silver pied. You will never get silver pied from using 'regular pieds' as silver pied have something extra added. It is true that all silver pieds have the white eyes and it certainly makes sense to think they are pied with "white eyed added".

However.. doesn't seem to be that simple in my experience. I bought a single silver pied male, as that's what the breeders I spoke to told me- it is pied with white eyed added and they agreed that breeding him to my white eyed split white hens and whites out of white eyeds would give me some silver pieds. Had lots of those, so decided on just a male and not a pair...

Result of 2 seasons of silver pied male over white eyed split white hens and white hens out of white eyeds? Zero silver pied. Majority of the colored offspring were "minimal pied"- not much white, and was restricted to the wings and face on majority of them. A very few had white elsewhere, like on the back or the tail area.

OK... so I spoke to breeders about those results.. suddenly they said oh no, to get silver pied have to use silver pieds...... ?? Not what they told me before. So I went ahead and bought a black shoulder silver pied pair. I "tested" this male with white eyed hens/white out of white eyed hens... got the same results as the first silver pied male, no silver pieds.

I gave daughters out of the first male to this male and did get a few silver pieds but also more of the 'minimal pied'. Overall it seems to me there is something else going on than a simple case of 'add white eye to pied= silver pied'. Whatever it is, I don't know.

 

[Henk69]

The pied gene must be homozygous for silver pied.

 

[Kev]

Quote:
So you're saying white and pied are not alleles? It seems to be considered so by many peafowl breeders, as the reason pied with the big patches of white cannot "breed true".

I have my suspicions about that but have no real proof either way... do you have information?