Livestock guardian dogs

[drake01]

I amazed that people have ever been able to keep there animals and not have them all slaughtered off by predators, must be every Tom dick and Harry that ever owned a few chickens had a true " livestock guardian" to keep the coyotes in check. People have used different dogs of all types mutts included to safely raise animals throughout history.

 

[hungry]

Yeah, that's right, a lot of people disagree with you so they must all be wrong.


Personally, since the biggest threat my "flock" faces is the neighbor's dog, and I'm in an area where I can shoot dogs that bother my flock, I don't need or have a LGD at all... but if I did, you can bet I would choose one that was in the 120+lb range and large, because frankly my experience with small dogs for keeping predators away is that they just can't get it done.

 

[coloradoalice]

Yes, you can use any breed you want. If you are in a warmer climate you could use a lab or some such. Heck if we lived somewhere warmer we may have kept using our lab. But the truth is with only her to guard we had to, and did, accept occasional losses because she is a people dog who wanted to see the people and please the people and be with the people. We lost one chicken in broad daylight because the dog was distracted and following us around, coyote jumped the fence, grabbed a chicken, jumped back over and took off. Our Pyrenees would never miss that. He just wouldn't. Like I said, if you are familiar with dogs at all, once you see a true LPD in action it's undeniable that they are the best for the job.

In a place with a good winter though, you shouldn't use a dog that isn't bred for the weather because what good is a guardian dog if it can't stand guard all day and night. It would be cruel to leave a doberman or lab outside 24/7 in the winter here.

 

[INFIDEL]

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. The OP is in Missouri. He needs an LGD. Which usually means you need at least 2 dogs. Being in a state with no real wolf population (http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/ed-riser/2007/09/hunter-encounters-wolf-missouri) he could get away with a "normal" LGD breed. He would want dogs >90lbs as coyotes are much more dangerous lb per lb than a dog. But when you research further maybe he does need a Larger LGD breed like a CO,CAS,Kangal or Boz Shepherd as there seems to be some GIANT hybrid predators in the state http://mdc.mo.gov/newsroom/hunter-shoots-unusually-large-coyote-northwest-missouri ... A Llama, mule, heeler, pit bull, lurcher, doberman and even a Great Pyr is no match for a predator like this. A 104 lb predator like this has twice the bite force of a 104 lb dog. To keep your dogs alive while fighting a foe like this you will want 2 GIANT LGDs. LGDs are breed for this work. You don't take a pit bull quail hunting. You don't use a Irish wolfhound on an agility course and you shouldn't use anything but a good LGD breed to guard your livestock. Especially when you have 104lb wolf like predators in the state. And before you're done judging me, realize I have 8 LGDs that live between 2 wolf packs on a ranch that has coyotes, foxes, bald eagles, golden eagles, black bears and Grizzly bears. That saw at least 9 verified different Mountain Lions this year. I live in predator heaven. And it would be hell without my Boz to keep us and the livestock safe. The pitts and labs and goldens and our German Shepherd(all male dogs) we had/have, hide when the wolves come by, but not the Boz. Remember that when you go to get a guard dog. Get a dog bred for the job at hand. Better to have too much dog and not need it, than to need the GIANT dog and have a smaller, dead dog instead.

 

[trailchick]

Woww, 104#, huge!!!!!
Thanks, for that link, Infidel....
If the Resource division did do DNA testing how could there
be speculation that it was a wolf hybrid? Just wonderin'

I am looking at adding another large lgd, & there is a guy
breeding CAS in Golden, CO. Does anybody know about
his dogs for working?

 

[truth is]

this is just for simple predators like bears, bobcats, foxes, fishers, coyotes, hawks, stray dogs I think 1 good dog is enough if its a really good dog from good bloodlines


but if you have pumas and wolves u will need a pack to deter them if they are serious

Because this will happen with large predators like a wolf or a puma will make quick work if they are dead serious



Note the breed is a great pyr which is usually the LGD that often is victimized by predators. If you want a serious dog do your research and get something that can handle a stronger predator. This dog was killed by a single wolf.

The problem with grabbing pictures off the internet to help promote your breed of choice is that it can backfire. If I remember correctly the rancher who owned the dogs said it was four wolves against five Great Pyrenees. Those are really tough odds for any LGD.

So I strongly suggest for the original poster to do your own research, and do everything to get to the source. One poster here who wants to be thought an expert is really nothing more than a breeder, and does not even have a real farm.

 

[trailchick]

So, welcome Truth, to /BYC,
glad you could join in. Likewwise, to the other new members
on this thread.
I can see that there are alot of strong opinions about
this topic, ha, like the chicken people on here.
ooop, gotta go, my lgd is barkin, need to check on
what is goin ou there.......

 

[CASDOG1]

His dogs aren't to my taste in type, personally, but I don't know him well enough to know whether or not I would recommend him as a breeder. I don't know if he has livestock himself or not, but I know a couple of people with dogs from him who are happy with them. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of people yet in North America who are breeding CAS for LGD work. A lot of them are breeding for show or are breeding fighting line dogs which don't get along well with other dogs (this is a problem for working LGDs). It's usually a good idea to look for a breeder who has livestock as well, or at least has many pups in working livestock guardian homes. My CAS are raised with goats, horses, cattle, chickens, guineas & occasionally pigs. My focus is only to sell to working homes so I breed with that goal 100% first & foremost in mind.

~~~
Anna and the Thunder Mountain Gang
Woodruff, SC

 

[centrarchid]

A Doberman cannot handle predators. It doesn't take nearly enough power to take down a human being that battling predators requires. Coyotes routinely kill pet dogs the size of Dobermans & German Shepherd Dogs. A 40 pound coyote will kill an 80 pound Doberman easily. Dobermans are also highly active while LGD breeds are not & thus require a lot more space, attention, & exercise than an LGD. LGDs aren't large so they can cover huge areas, they're large so they can resist injury in fights with multiple predators at a time. Dobermans are meant for human protection only & lack the power, toughness, & instincts to guard livestock from predators. They also can't live outdoors in cold or inclement weather & have no instinct for bonding with livestock.

There is a LOT of bad information out there about LGDs & why most dogs that are not of LGD breeds will not be able to perform as LGDs. Here is a list of traits you will find in all good LGDs. Remember, just because a dog is protective of you doesn't mean it is a good livestock guardian dog. They are not hunting or herding dogs, either. These traits below are ALL required for a good LGD. I wrote this for an educational group I run which exists to help people learn about LGDs, from selecting, raising, & training a pup to finding a good breeder or rescue to understand the many different breeds & why LGDs are different from other breeds of dogs.

~~~

Myth #2) Any breed or mix of breeds will be a good LGD if it is raised with livestock from puppyhood.

This myth was propogated by a a well-known author & is a constant thorn in the side of experienced LGD folks. The fact is, while certain individual dogs of a non LGD breed or breeds may occasionally work out as a working livestock guardian, this in no way suggests that just any dog anywhere can do it. Breeds exist because people discovered the simple genetic truth that breeding like to like has a greater tendency to produce like. LGD breeds have been bred for many years, in some cases millenia, to have a particular set of traits that predispose them to be good at the specific task of living with livestock 24/7, without immediate human direction, & protecting them from all threats. These traits include:

*a powerful, athletic, & agile build, able to soak as well as dish out a great deal of damage
*thick, loose skin (thicker than any other canid) which is difficult to pierce
*a high territorial defense drive that causes them to stand their ground rather than flee from a threat
*a naturally calm, submissive demeanor around flighty prey animals
*a physical morphology which gives them a softer expression which also serves to make them less intimidating in appearance to livestock
*low prey drive
*an instinctive ability to evaluate threat level & respond accordingly
*an affinity for weak & small animals (including children)
*a harsh, all weather, double coat which protects them from heat, cold, injury, wetness, dirt, & debris
*the ability to think independently, problem solve, take quick stock of any situation, & make effective decisions at a moment's notice
*the instinct to conserve their energy so they are always ready to take action
*a lower metabolism that requires less food for their size

If it does not possess ALL of these traits, it is not an LGD.

~~~~
Anna & the Thunder Mountain Gang
Woodruff, SC

The some of the traits listed above are not the ideal for guarding poultry, especially when climate is not like in northern Europe. Most LGD's used to guard ruminants are neither fast or agile. Poultry will be victims of snatch and grab by canids in particular that will not stand and fight like a wolf or domestic dog. Additionally, smaller predators like foxes take more birds than the bigger animals, especially if all you have is a big dog patrolling that lacks speed and initiative.

 

[frogz]

I have a Chesapeake bay retriever and a lab mix that watch over my flock. Retrievers have soft mouths, big hearts, and only really bark when something is too close to their family or are upset in general. Just no ducks.