Matilda is going to lose her feet. :(

It wasnt a shock so much, since "blood and guts" really dont faze me at all, & i of course knew she would lose the foot. What it was, was umm, a "surprise". The separation looked Nothing like ive seen in other frostbite threads. I will explain more in the pics im fixin to post. The following photos will be very graphic, not because im into gore, but because i REally need some educated opinions on what is going on with her feet. (Do i need to put a "cover" over the graphic photos, or is the thread title enough of a warning? If so, hmm i dont know how to put the green block (spoiler) over the photos. The oddity(s) likely have everything to do with how the frostbite happened. Tu everyone for your advice and support, & if you know Anyone that might have helpful medical input, could you tag them please? Pics coming next.
Glad to see you're still active here, bc I wanted to say thank you..well for a cpl of things. Although this thread is old, it was exactly what I was looking for.
I'm going through this now & appreciate the start to end thread. The other thing was thanks for the warning here, as I was munching on my subway sandwich while reading. 😉 Back to Matilda. I truly appreciate this. I'm doing basically the same things, but it's good to see a been there done that confirmation that my actions are accurate.
 
Glad to see you're still active here, bc I wanted to say thank you..well for a cpl of things. Although this thread is old, it was exactly what I was looking for.
I'm going through this now & appreciate the start to end thread. The other thing was thanks for the warning here, as I was munching on my subway sandwich while reading. 😉 Back to Matilda. I truly appreciate this. I'm doing basically the same things, but it's good to see a been there done that confirmation that my actions are accurate.
I'm sorry you are going through a similiar situation, but very glad you found this thread helpful. As you have seen while reading, I didn't know much about frostbite when Matilda's injuries ocurred, since I live in a climate where extremely cold temperatures are fairly rare. But the knowledge and emotional support provided by many other BYC members here was incredible, and helped make her care and recovery so much easier. If you have any questions you are welcome to ask them here, or better yet, create your own thread, since every frostbite case is unique. If you create your own thread, please tag me so I am aware. Also, after Matilda had recovered, and through the encouragement from fellow members, I wrote an article about frostbite. It contains some general information not included within this thread, and also features Matilda's injury, care and recovery in the last half of the article. You may find it helpful too.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...to-know-about-injury-care-and-recovery.78168/
 
So glad you wrote an article! I just shared the thread with someone else last night.
Three weeks ago,3 hens were spooked & took to the trees right before bad weather came in that night. 2 came down the next day, the 3rd stayed up for 4 nights. That one returned unscathed. The 2 as follows.
Nomie- she dropped 2 toes yesterday with scant bleeding. I expect far more to come off, given demarcation lines. She does walk on the back of her feet.
20240204_151739.jpg

Willow walks on her feet. At first her ankles were swollen far bigger than shown here, and there's been a lot of sloughing of eschar before & after these pics. All off of her legs, and some from her feet & toes. At first I thought she'd lose higher up her leg where those lines are, but after the sloughing could see the blood lines, we'll see.
20240204_163301.jpg 20240204_162812.jpg
They are in a clothes basket together inside. I alternated epsom & chlorhexidine solution soaks, but will discontinue Nomie's now that the toes have come off.
Likewise have been using veterycin. I have not been dressing or slathering with ointment, as one of Nomie's toes was hanging by moist tissue. Nor have I started slings yet, they stretch out on their sides with legs kicked out. Willow may tolerate sling but Nomie is 8 mo old and not going to tol much. (Did I mention these are guinea, not chickens?!)
Will try to get more pics, they are camera shy. But this is Willow after tx- 20240204_163411.jpg
 
Oh gosh that is bad; I am sorry. :hugs I'm not surprised that Nomie's toes didn't bleed when they fell off, because considerable tissue above her left foot is necrotic too. The same exact thing occurred with Matilda's right foot; a dead toe fell of before the rest of her foot did, and the separated toe didn't bleed at all since the remaining foot was already necrotic too. Unless Nomie fights the medicated soaks, i would continue doing so, both because it provides soothing pain relief, and because her shank is most susceptible to infection at the line of demarcation. (I can see the left shank already shows evidence of separation at the demarcation line, and the right foot shows some separation at the toes.) I hope you are correct that Willow's injury isn't as severe, and that there may be healthy tissue under the blackened skin. FYI Matilda walked on her (dead) feet too until the left one separated; the photo in the heading of the article was taken just a week or so before her left foot fell away. Have a look at Matilda's photos in the article, because it shows a condensed timeline and detailed descriptions of the auto-amputation process that took place.

There are definitely similarities to what you are going through and what I experienced, including housing them in a clothes basket! (That was the most immediate "house" I had available when Matilda's injuries occurred, and since she stayed in it contently, I never got her a proper house until nearly a year later.) Even after she recovered, she was content to stay in her basket, but you may have a different experience since your guineas are much younger/more active. Matilda's rabbit-type hutch may also be ideal for your pair.
20220125_090534~5.jpg


You may find that Nomie and Willow become immediately more mobile as soon as their feet/toes separate. Matilda stood up on her stumps within a couple of hours after the top of her right foot finally separated, but I was advised to not let her stand and walk until she had a few days to heal. So I would have a proper cage ready just in case your pair soon decides it's time to fly their coop/laundry basket! Also, overall I think it's good that Nomie and Wllow have each other's company during their ordeal, though I'm sorry for the reason. The only issue i can foresee is IF remaining viable tissue bleeds at the moment of separation, and the live tissue gets pecked and injured by the other guinea. Just in case, do you have a contingency plan to avoid that possibility?
 
Will continue soaks.🙂 I can put Willow in the bedside washpan and leave the room. Nomie tries to do shark rolls even as I hold her, but we get it done..just a little wetter. 🙄
As for Willow - We're all bird lovers here, right? 😁 Willow curls up on the sofa with the dogs and I in the evening (in her towel). She was slightly curling her toes of one foot around my finger last night I'm applying bag balm, & wondered abt very gentle slight rom to ankles & toes- not forcing, just what will move. 🤷‍♀️
Housing - their basket is inside of a large dog crate as much for their safety-dogs, grandkids. I'm hoping that after full recovery of they'll be able to rejoin flock. I take them out on the porch when it's nice out so everyone can come up and say hi, and I can tell they want to join them.
I've paid particular attention to that part of your thread: "Matilda stood up on her stumps...I was advised to not let her stand and walk until she had a few days to heal."
I have a second clothesbasket on standby for when it's time for slings, and am trying to prep for stumps. Still debating on whether I want to use an impregnated dressing (some suggested those to you, as opposed to slathering a dressing or cotton ball with Vaseline or neosporin. If there are ANY toes left, I have neoprene chicken shoes that would cushion well, but not sure of their value for a stump, unless I stitch the toes up. 🤔 I saw those prosthetics, but they looked uncomfortable.
They can move to the dog crate when the time comes, and then if they do get to rejoin flock, the crate can go with them for reintroduction. I can device a division for crate as needed, I divided the basket at first.
 
Willow sounds like a little darling, and it is an excellent sign that she is able to slightly curl her toes around your finger. If her feet were completely dead, they would be rigid and stiff. You may find that Nomie loses her feet before Willow's recover, but with time and your care, they hopefully will. Aloe vera gel has been shown to help frostbitten tissue heal. I'm not sure if bag balm has equal healing properties, though it won't hurt. Also, baby aspirin given twice daily may help improve blood flow in Willow's feet. The dosage for a six pound bird is one 80mg baby aspirin given twice daily; adjust the dose according to your guinea's weights. Even if Nomie's feet are goners, baby aspirin, along with the Epsom salts soaks, may provide pain relief.

Still debating on whether I want to use an impregnated dressing (some suggested those to you, as opposed to slathering a dressing or cotton ball with Vaseline or neosporin. If there are ANY toes left, I have neoprene chicken shoes that would cushion well, but not sure of their value for a stump, unless I stitch the toes up. 🤔 I saw those prosthetics, but they looked uncomfortable.
Yes, many members suggested excellent ideas to provide more cushion and padding for Matilda's stumps. You may come up with something else entirely, since every bird (and every stump) is different. If you were referring to 3d-printed mail order prosthetics looking uncomfortable, those who i am aware have tried the mail order variety said they were useless. Nearly three years ago, I tried to contact the person recommended on this thread who makes 3d mail order prosthetics. I had questions because the linked videos on his website didn't work, and the photos on the website showed people holding their bird amputees up in the air for a photo, but no photos showed a bird walking/putting pressure on their prosthetic. I never got a response to my inquiry. Re the person I contacted, I believed his heart was in the right place, and if someone lived nearby, he could possibly create the perfect fit. But at the time I considered his prosthetics for Matilda nearly 3 years ago, he didn't have the art perfected yet. 3d printed prosthetics can absolutely work, but it requires multiple fittings and adjustments while working closely with the printer. After all, human amputees don't send their stump measurements over the internet and then receive a prosthetic through the mail. Chicken feet/stumps are comparably complex as humans in order to get a comfortable, functional fit. I look forward to the day when a BYC member posts videos of their bird sucessfully wearing a prosthetic, and feel certain it will eventually happen.

She was slightly curling her toes of one foot around my finger last night I'm applying bag balm, & wondered abt very gentle slight rom to ankles & toes- not forcing, just what will move. 🤷‍♀️
There is a slight typo in your question, but if you are asking if it is advisable to gently flex Willow's injured feet, I would not do so at this time. Same as massaging/rubbing damaged tissue can cause further damage, my intuition says that flexing/manipulating the feet, even if done gently, could also cause more damage. However, both @azygous and @Eggcessive have replied and/or reacted to your posts here, so I will tag them for their thoughts. Your question is a good one, and will help others who may see this thread in the future.
 
Yes, ROM -Range of Motion- is what I wondered, but will avoid. Pictures today
Nomie- 20240208_195353.jpg 20240208_195433_001.jpg
Willow-
Last week vs today-
20240204_163217.jpg 20240208_195433_001.jpg 20240204_162812.jpg 20240208_195437.jpg
So you can see the debriding has gone well. She really hates the camera near her feet so I couldn't convince her to show her legs. I can tell they're both tender tonight so not fussing with them too much. Will pick up baby aspirin in a.m.
thank you for your insights!
 
I just came across this thread. One of my hens had a severe case of frostbite last winter and lost about half of her toes. I know how hard it is for the bird and the caretaker to get through recovery. I was so very proud when Eleanor -- who was housed in a wire dog crate with a roost and nest box -- was well enough to lay her first post-frostbite egg.

Best wishes for continuing improvements for your girls, and bless you for caring so much about them!
 

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