Old and Rare Breeds

[DaveK]

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I lack any historical knowledge to back up this statement but I have always wondered which of these two, if either, came first. There are some subtle details, like hair feathers, common to the best specimens of both. Underline in a good Spanish hen will also make one wonder, especially if they are out grazing with Dorkings. They are not physically the same overall type but details make me wonder if they evolved one from the other or sort of together from stuff we may not even know about. A little off topic for the current discussion but I was struck by the statement made.

 

[gallorojo]

I always thought the Romans had leghorns, is that just conjecture? Perhaps no documentation?

Interesting what DaveK said about the Dorkings. I always thought of the Dorking as what you would get if you started with the game/light/bankiva type and selected for a meat type bird, instead of an egg/ceremonial/fighting bird, and just making that selective pressure for a very long time. I'm basing this on the idea that the large meat type Asiatics /Orientals were not known in the ancient Roman/Greek world. Those Asian breeds seem so fundamentally different from the European breeds.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

As a means to explain the turkey/guinea dilemma. As Walt said, the APA recognizes one breed with many varieties. It is my understanding that breed is defined by type or shape and not color. So type is breed, color is variety. All turkeys are supposed to be morpohlogically identical and thus they are all one breed. However, the various colors are varieties.

I do not know--truly--I've never looked into it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the same were true for guineas.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

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I've never seen anything to document the Romans having leghorns....BUT...you want to talk about similarities with Dorkings???!!!

 

[gallorojo]

To clarify- I did not say the Dorking is similar to a leghorn. I am saying, they seem to me, and I could easily be wrong, that they ( Dorking/Leghorn type) have a more recent common ancestor than say, a Dorking and a Brahma/Cochin. In other words, they were developed from a similar base bird, a game type. I could be easily be dead wrong. Just my pet theory, I'm willing to listen to any other folk's ideas and learn.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

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Oh, I was saying that they're similar: considering the possibility of a 2000 year genetic rift between the two breeds, I think that there are a lot of line that could be drawn. So, I guess I'm fairly down with your pet theory. Also, in other Roman readings, they stress the prominent usage of fowl for eggs in Rome. Instantly my mind goes to Anconas and LEghorns, whcih flank it. The difficulty is, of course, the documentation question. I often wonder how many texts are gone for each that is extant.

 

[buffalogal]

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I care.

I've read that the ALBC refers to different kinds (colors, sizes) of Turkeys as breeds, but
I didn't know the APA considered all Turkeys to be a variety. You learn something everyday. How are the Beltsville or the Midget White classified, or are they even in the SoP? Do you know if Turkeys are "recognized" in other parts of the world as breeds or varieties, or is the US the only country that even bothers to classify them?

I also didn't know the APA accepted Guineas as a "breed". (I wonder what they're supposed to be a breed of?) The way I understand it, a simplified definition of a breed (for animals and birds) is a subset of animals with certain common traits exclusive of other animals of the species that will "breed true" only if they are selectively bred by man. A Silky will only produce Silky chicks if it's selectively bred to another Silky. If it's bred to a RIR, they might be someone's "project", but they will not be a breed, and certainly not a Silky. For Silkies to exist, someone has to be there, setting up breeding pens, mating like to like, culling individuals that don't meet the ideal of a chicken version of a puff ball. But left to their own devices, even a pen of Silkies would eventually produce chicks that revert back to something closer to the original"wild type".(feathers instead of fluff, that kind of thing) That's because Man loves a freak, Nature, not so much. That's the challenge of working with a breed; you are always working against Nature, and the less like a Jungle Fowl it is, the more important that selective breeding becomes. Nature wants chickens to have real feathers; not too loose and not too tight, with clean legs; not too long, not too short and certainly without a fluffy lump on their heads that is subject to brain damage. Being able to create and perpetuate Silkies, or RIRs, or Dorkings in spite of that is what makes it so addictive.

A species would be a subset of animals that have certain traits in common and can breed true without interference by man. That's just science. Domesticated Guineas are identical to wild Guineas. Even the color varieties occasionally crop up in the wild. (I'd imagine they're short lived, as a pale or white bird would be pretty obvious to a predator, but just like a white Zebra, it happens) A pen of wild Guineas fresh from the veld would produce keets that would be indistinguishable from domesticated Guineas and vice versa; they require no selective breeding to continue their common traits.

Anyway, as the PTB have decreed Guineas to be a breed. I stand corrected. Compared to a Silkie, or a RIR or even one of those varieties of Turkey, I suppose the Guinea is actually the perfect "breed" for the 21st century. You don't have to do anything to have Guinea keets except make sure both birds in the pen are the right species and they'll handle the "common traits" all by themselves. It's near instant gratification.

(Gee, I hope I'm not 3 or 4 or 10 pages behind as I submit this...)

 

[Schweiger]

Yea Leghorns definately have game in them I have had some that have a major game drive. I have almost considered clan breeding a group of games with some leghorn added in just to up egg production and see what happens.

 

[buffalogal]

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I've got a few of those running around. Yes, they lay well, and in spite of mostly being white, they're great natural mothers. If you were interested, tomorrow I could get some pictures.

 

[fowlman01]

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I've never seen anything to document the Romans having leghorns....BUT...you want to talk about similarities with Dorkings???!!!

A good book on the history of chickens is: The Chicken Book by the noted historian Page Smith and Biology Professor Charles Daniel. They talk about the Dorkings and other chickens the Romans encountered in their travels. It also talks about Pliny the elder, Columella and the 1500 years before Ulisse Aldrovandi brought chickens into the limelight of writings again. The chickens had their own "dark age" so to speak. One interesting reference is about the Egyptians and their 10-15,000 egg incubators......the first commercial hatcheries. It is an easy read.

Walt