opinions on diatomaceous earth?

[dawg53]

PS My dogs are large to extra large, 65 to 125 lbs at ideal weight, and have all lived to 15 or 16 years healthy. My 125 lb Golden Retriever mix lived to 16. It's rare for dogs to live as long as mine, so I'm pretty good at figuring out what's good and effective for their ailments.

Tip: To completely cure symptoms of arthritis in dogs, use the liquid Farnham's Next Level Equine Joint Fluid "For all classes of horses and dogs" from TSC (accept no subsitutes).

I know a little bit about dogs; congrats to your dogs and you for taking good care of them.
The scolex is the head of the tapeworm which embeds itself in the mucosal lining. DE cannot penetrate that deep into the lining. The only way to kill it and prevent it from reproducing white rice-like segments (eventually seen in feces or the rear end of the dog or in fur) is a chemical wormer specifically needed to completely kill the tapeworm. Kill the head, no more segments. The wormer is absorbed into the bloodstream and kills the worm, then it releases it's pincher grip and is absorbed as protein in the digestive tract. Some wormers paralyze worms causing them to release their grip...no more bloodsucking. BTW; each rice-like segment contains hundreds of eggs. Soil/grass remains contaminated with these eggs. Fleas eat the infective eggs, dogs eat the infective fleas when bitten...and the dog gets infected, completing the tapeworms lifecycle. This is known as the indirect lifecycle of cestodes. Same applies for chickens.
DE cannot enter into the bloodstream to kill or paralyze worms, nor to kill the head. The same is true for capillary worms, gapeworm, eyeworm, gizzard worm, cecal and large roundworms.

 

[enola]

Dawg,

So DE would be ineffective on nasal botts and lung worms in sheep and goats.

And blood worms in horses?

 

[dawg53]

My friend dwag53
I myself don't use DA. I actually use Mebendazol (vermox) when I think that the chickens need deworming
( In Israel 1 kilo=2 pounds, of food grade DA cost 27$!) but I do practice a very strict biosecurity
and I do use some alternative ways, like the use of very high Capsaicin levels chili powder, and wormwood, to keep the worms in bay.
I do check under the microscope fecal samples, and do other exams to check the worm load on my chickens.
However , I think that every forum member is entitled to an access to information that is scientifically proven and not only to information published by people that have other interests. I expecting from any forum member,( as I expect from myself,my children, and my student!) to be an autodidact and self taught person, so when I think that something is wrong or misleading I do say my established point of view!
And as the godfather said: "it's nothing personal it's just business"
After I viewed your link, I now understand way Marijuana is illegal, it isn't because the psychoactive features, of the THC, but because its lactation ones!
."
Mebendazole is an excellent wormer; in the same class as albendazole, fenbendazole, flubendazole and others. Wormers are cheap and have long expiration dates, more bang for the money. I rotate wormers to prevent resistance. There are plenty of wormers that can be used, but I've found that it's really not necessary to stock up on so many wormers.

 

[dawg53]

Dawg,

So DE would be ineffective on nasal botts and lung worms in sheep and goats.

And blood worms in horses?

I've never owned sheep, goats nor horses...cant answer that, sorry.

 

[ConPollos]

I know a little bit about dogs; congrats to your dogs and you for taking good care of them.
The scolex is the head of the tapeworm which embeds itself in the mucosal lining. DE cannot penetrate that deep into the lining. The only way to kill it and prevent it from reproducing white rice-like segments (eventually seen in feces or the rear end of the dog or in fur) is a chemical wormer specifically needed to completely kill the tapeworm. Kill the head, no more segments. The wormer is absorbed into the bloodstream and kills the worm, then it releases it's pincher grip and is absorbed as protein in the digestive tract. Some wormers paralyze worms causing them to release their grip...no more bloodsucking. BTW; each rice-like segment contains hundreds of eggs. Soil/grass remains contaminated with these eggs. Fleas eat the infective eggs, dogs eat the infective fleas when bitten...and the dog gets infected, completing the tapeworms lifecycle. This is known as the indirect lifecycle of cestodes. Same applies for chickens.
DE cannot enter into the bloodstream to kill or paralyze worms, nor to kill the head. The same is true for capillary worms, gapeworm, eyeworm, gizzard worm, cecal and large roundworms.

So, how would you account for the fact that after the DE killed all my dogs' tapeworms six months ago they've never had another case of them even though I haven't used any chemical wormer since then?

 

[casportpony]

I know a little bit about dogs; congrats to your dogs and you for taking good care of them.
The scolex is the head of the tapeworm which embeds itself in the mucosal lining. DE cannot penetrate that deep into the lining. The only way to kill it and prevent it from reproducing white rice-like segments (eventually seen in feces or the rear end of the dog or in fur) is a chemical wormer specifically needed to completely kill the tapeworm. Kill the head, no more segments. The wormer is absorbed into the bloodstream and kills the worm, then it releases it's pincher grip and is absorbed as protein in the digestive tract. Some wormers paralyze worms causing them to release their grip...no more bloodsucking. BTW; each rice-like segment contains hundreds of eggs. Soil/grass remains contaminated with these eggs. Fleas eat the infective eggs, dogs eat the infective fleas when bitten...and the dog gets infected, completing the tapeworms lifecycle. This is known as the indirect lifecycle of cestodes. Same applies for chickens.
DE cannot enter into the bloodstream to kill or paralyze worms, nor to kill the head. The same is true for capillary worms, gapeworm, eyeworm, gizzard worm, cecal and large roundworms.

So, how would you account for the fact that after the DE killed all my dogs' tapeworms six months ago they've never had another case of them even though I haven't used any chemical wormer since then?

Did you have fecal floats done before and after DE?

-Kathy

 

[ConPollos]

Did you have fecal floats done before and after DE?

-Kathy

Nope, just like I don't have fecal floats done before and after I worm dogs or horses with chemical wormers. I worm on a schedule or by noticing symptoms if I'm overdue on worming, such as dogs eating grass and scooting, etc. Without a microscope, my animals live much longer and, according to my vets, are healthier than most.

 

[casportpony]

I think many equine vets recommend doing fecals rather than just worming every x months. 20 years ago worming them a few months was the recommended method, but I don't think it is anymore. Will try to find more info on the UC Davis site.

-Kathy

 

[shortgrass]

BEYOND BAND-AIDS

"She said most graziers considering going to Certified Organic production first seek out organic alternative products rather than learning preventative medicine.

“Keep in mind all wormers, drugs and chemical fly control are just band-aids as are all their organic replacements.

“None of them work if you don’t treat the whole system.

“We’ve been taught how to treat diseases. Now, we have to learn how to manage the whole system so as to keep animals healthy.”

She said preventative animal health practices include such things as:

Good animal husbandry practices such as calving during surplus grass periods; culling rather than treating sick animals; using mixed species grazing; and always providing good nutrition and plentiful clean water.

Good sanitation practices such as avoiding confinement, mud, and keeping pastures earthworm and dung beetle friendly so as to rapidly recycle manure.

Learning to observe your animals’ physical manifestations of health such as bright eyes and a shiny hair coat.

Using vaccinations. These are allowed under Certified Organic protocols.

And the quarantining of all new arrivals until you are sure they are not carrying foot-rot or other infectious diseases onto your pastures.

“A closed herd is a huge benefit in organic production. Most of your problems come from buying other people’s animals.”

She said culling was a major tool that most Certified Organic producers were slow to use due to the high prices they pay for their animals but was absolutely essential in creating a low labor and input herd."


Ok, rest of that article, written BY A VET


https://www.stockmangrassfarmer.com/articles/view.php?entryID=13

1. I am an organic rancher. My crops are organic to feed my cattle and chickens and sheep. I have used DE for not just years...DECADES since my parents stopped using modern chemicals to help restore our precious land for my children... I CANNOT AND WILL NOT use chemicals... I would lose my certification and my ranch.

2. Wow I couldn't afford having all those wormers on hand, not to mention having to rotate them like that; if THAT doesn't say something about the life cycle being completely mutated, I don't know what does...

3. Farmers like myself raise crops and meat for millions of people who will pay a premium to not have that stuff in their food supply. SUPPLY and DEMAND.

4. Ethics. This soil needs to feed more than just me. It needs to last for generations if hungry AMERICANS and Chinese people that live non GMO and organic food.

It is VERY difficult to alter soil back to natural from decades of chemical abuse, but somebody has to do it. Once that soil is back to health, you can kiss your constant worming and fecal floats good bye. My folks did, and I do too, because we HAVE to to survive.

So, no fancy schmancy bandwagon, no keeping up with the jones', but depending on the ground and mtvanimals natural immune systems instead of paying for I-dont-know-what-it-is-or-will-do-to-my-soil.

DE is my ultimate choice for TJOUSANDS of things...because it works, WHEN YOU USE IT CORRECTLY.

 

[ConPollos]

I think many equine vets recommend doing fecals rather than just worming every x months. 20 years ago worming them a few months was the recommended method, but I don't think it is anymore. Will try to find more info on the UC Davis site.

-Kathy

Of course they do, because they get to charge you money for fecals. There are cases where a fecal is needed for a difficult diagnosis, but that's not the norm. However, if you have extra money to spend on several fecals per year, it doesn't hurt.

Until a few years ago, I lived and worked as a horse groom in a town where horses are trained for the Kentucky Derby and other big races. I also worked for a former Olympic equestrian coach, and for other international competitors. I learned a lot.

All the vets there were cutting egde, and I used the best, who fortunately for me were not greedy and would honestly tell me ways to treat my animals for a fraction of the cost, or would advise me over the phone to save me a barn trip fee. Their reputations were on the line and they were concientious in doing this, so they would not hesitate to drop wverything and come over immediately if it were at all necessary. But unlike most vets, they didn't just come on out so they could charge for it and recommend a lot of unnecessary tests.

My most esteemed horse vet was fond of saying, "Less is more." As a groom, I noticed that the pastured "Less is more" horses were very healthy, whereas the stalled/fussed over/ micromanaged horses had constant ailments, from skin problems to serious colic and everything in between. Mine rarely had any health issue.

So, I'm not going to be swayed by the latest moneymaking vet venture, even if it's supported by UC Davis. Grooms are responsible for the total care, health, safety, and wellbeing of the horse; we do a lot more than muck stalls and brush them. It's the groom that usually notices a symptom and alerts the trainer or owner of the need to get a vet, farrier, or other professional or product.

Other vets would see my horses and say, "Wow, how come yours look so much better than all the horses I see coming and going from here?" and, "Sure wish other horse owners could see that a long winter coat can be as shiney as your horses' are in winter," etc. (And I never even groomed my horses' winter coats because it destroys the waxy coating and insulating buildup of hair and stuff that protects them from cold rain and sleet, but they were still shiney when others weren't. Instead of grooming I just knocked off any surface dirt that would interfere with the tack.)

I did sometimes talk to greedy vets who would recommend treatments that were prolonged and cost a fortune, but in every case by the time I caught up with my awesome vet he could cure it very inexpensively, or tell me how to cure it, or it didn't require any treatment at all. Lol. Like the time my horse had a nosebleed and the other vet told me it would take thousands to fix it, but my vet told me my horse had simply bumped her nose in the heat of the day and it would likely be fine. He was right as always, so I rely on my vets for guidance, but I am a client who needs to be advised of how to keep the costs down whenever possible.

Here my small animal vet is excellent, but he's not inclined to spill the beans about home remedies and cutting costs with farm supply meds or off label drug use, but he probably shares that info with friends, family, and owners of big sporting dog kennels. Most vets will.