Pekin with symptoms of niacin deficiency even with consistent supplementation. Please advise!

[OneEggToRuleThemAll]

Hello everyone! My Pekin duckling, Mae, is showing symptoms of a niacin deficiency! She injured one of her legs at one week, so I upped her niacin and her leg got better. But then, about a week ago, she started putting weight on fast and has caught up in size to her Buff Orpington and Blue Swedish sisters. The difference is that her legs look much thicker, especially her knees. Now, at four weeks, she is having trouble standing for more than a few minutes at a time, and she mostly just prefers laying down. I noticed yesterday that her hip joints are also more widely spaced than her sisters'. When she stands, she wobbles a little back and forth and then kind of falls (comfortably, but still) back until she lays down again.

After noticing this yesterday, I gave her 2mL of Durvet Liquid B Complex over some dried mealworms and she ate them all up. I had previously been putting the B complex (4mL once per day) in her salad + water, which she shared with her (non-Pekin) sisters. I would watch her eat her salad/drink the water vigorously, so I know she was getting a lot of the dose, but of course, I couldn't measure exactly how much. But...she was also getting nutritional yeast on her food, peas every day, salad twice per day, and they eat Nature's Best Organic Duck Crumble which has a niacin supplement (not enough on its own, but combined with everything else...).

What do I do at this point?? I am so worried about her! She is so sweet and loving. I want her to get better asap!

Thank you.

ETA: Just wanted to add that I have read this post: https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/niacin-deficiency-in-waterfowl.1367557/ many times, and I'm still a little unsure on dosage with the Durvet Liquid B Complex. It says for niacin deficiency, give 1.0mL over treats once per day for ducklings over 14 days old. The bottle says this product contains 100mg of niacinamide per 1.0mL of solution. So that means, as long as I give Mae at least 1.0mL of the Durvet liquid, she should be getting AT LEAST 100mg of niacin, in addition to what she gets from her food, nutritional yeast, peas, and salad. Is this enough to fix her niacin deficiency? Is it too much? Please help!

 

[Jenbirdee]

B Vitamins are water soluble so if they have more than they need, it doesn’t hurt them.
How about some swimming therapy to help strengthen that little leg?

 

[OneEggToRuleThemAll]

B Vitamins are water soluble so if they have more than they need, it doesn’t hurt them.
How about some swimming therapy to help strengthen that little leg?

Hi @Jenbirdee , thank you for replying!

They are getting some swim time, not every day though. They were swimming yesterday and loving it! Mae does very well in the water.

It's funny...I read your comment and thought, "Little leg? She's got BIG legs!" LOL! Her legs seem so thick for her age, definitely thicker than her sisters' legs. I imagine that is normal with Pekins? But these symptoms she is having now don't seem related to her previous leg injury. She looks bow-legged and both legs wobble a bit when she stands. This seems different, though I am certainly no vet and have only 4 weeks worth of experience with poultry.

I will give her more swim time! Thank you!

 

[OneEggToRuleThemAll]

Figure I'll keep this post updated. Today is day 3 of Mae's Liquid B Complex dosing to treat suspected niacin deficiency. On day 1, I gave her 2mL of the B complex squirted over some dried mealworms. On days 2 and 3, I gave her 1mL over mealworms. Her sisters are quite jealous that they don't get a special dish of mealworms, lol! Of course, I do give them some, too, just not in their own little dish and not with any added B complex because they are thriving with no signs of niacin deficiency (they get lots of nutritional yeast, salad, and peas!).

Mae is still laying down more often than not, but when she stands up, she's not wobbling as much. Maybe that's wishful thinking? But I swear she seems stronger already! I will keep this thread updated with her progress.

And also, WOWSERS SHE'S HUGE! She is getting so big so fast! I can see why Jumbo Pekins need extra vitamins. Her rate of growth is much faster than her sisters'.

 

[OneEggToRuleThemAll]

So does anyone know anything about tryptophan? I found this pubmed article (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6538334/) that talked about how added tryptophan can decrease a duckling's need for niacin...does anyone with more experience in formulating feed/supplements have any input? My brain really wants more than "some heavy breeds need to stay on niacin throughout their lives"...how much? How often? Can they survive and THRIVE without synthetic niacin?

@U_Stormcrow I hope you don't mind me tagging you...I found some old threads in which you seemed quite knowledgeable in this subject. Do you have any suggestions/input regarding niacin deficiency in heavyweight ducks? Thank you!

 

[Miss Lydia]

Nutritional yeast is natural and this is what most of us use for our flocks once they hit adult age.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I've used Nutritional Yeast myself. The one concern is that its high protein - potentially 50% - which can lead to rapid gain of size, potentially putting on muscle mass before the bones, ligaments, joints have sufficient framework to support it. That's speculated as one of the methods by which "angel wing" is developed, and may be a contributing factor in ducks - particularly Pekins because of their size/growth rate - developing a slipped tendon in the knee joints

I'd watch total protein intake, and continue with the aquatic therapy. Make sure whatever surface your duck is on isn't smooth (i.e Porcelian tile bathroom floor, tub, plastic brooder box, metal floored stock tank - and if it is, add a fuzzy towel or similar that you don't mind being covered in duck splat). That will help with knee issues as well.

Beyond that, I got nothing. I'm very unhappy with my ducks - only the presence of more important household projects has kept me from sending the last of mine to freezer camp, ne'er to be replaced.

Duck eggs are great, but it takes too long, they produce too few, and and the production drops like a stone after a year. My opinion only.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

So does anyone know anything about tryptophan? I found this pubmed article (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6538334/) that talked about how added tryptophan can decrease a duckling's need for niacin...does anyone with more experience in formulating feed/supplements have any input? My brain really wants more than "some heavy breeds need to stay on niacin throughout their lives"...how much? How often? Can they survive and THRIVE without synthetic niacin?

@U_Stormcrow I hope you don't mind me tagging you...I found some old threads in which you seemed quite knowledgeable in this subject. Do you have any suggestions/input regarding niacin deficiency in heavyweight ducks? Thank you!

Re: Tryp - if you are feeding the traditional Corn/Soy diet and you have good numbers for crude protein, Met, and Lys, its almost impossible to miss your Tryp number, which is quite low. Among common feed ingredients, very high levels of Tryp in Blood meal , Sesame meal (OK, that's not so common), Fish Meal, Meat Scraps, Soybean meal, Yeast, Peanut Meal, Hemp, and Flax. Even field peas and winter peas have above adequate amounts.

To "miss" on Tryp, your feed would need to be made essentially entirely of grains - Rice, Wheat, Oats, Sorghum, Barley, Rye, Quinoa, Triticale, Buckjwheet, Corn and the like. No combination of which will likely hit your protein targets unless it is concentrated in some way (i.e. corn gluten meal).

Part of why it is so commonly ignored.

/and re: the study - the difference between an all purpose chicken feed and an "All FLock/Flock Raiser" SHOULD be increased levels of Niacin, to support ducks, geese, and other waterfowl.

 

[Miss Lydia]

I've used Nutritional Yeast myself. The one concern is that its high protein - potentially 50% - which can lead to rapid gain of size, potentially putting on muscle mass before the bones, ligaments, joints have sufficient framework to support it. That's speculated as one of the methods by which "angel wing" is developed, and may be a contributing factor in ducks - particularly Pekins because of their size/growth rate - developing a slipped tendon in the knee joints

I'd watch total protein intake, and continue with the aquatic therapy. Make sure whatever surface your duck is on isn't smooth (i.e Porcelian tile bathroom floor, tub, plastic brooder box, metal floored stock tank - and if it is, add a fuzzy towel or similar that you don't mind being covered in duck splat). That will help with knee issues as well.

Beyond that, I got nothing. I'm very unhappy with my ducks - only the presence of more important household projects has kept me from sending the last of mine to freezer camp, ne'er to be replaced.

Duck eggs are great, but it takes too long, they produce too few, and and the production drops like a stone after a year. My opinion only.

I’ve used Nutritional yeast for years and never had angel wing or leg problems ( lameness) but I’ve never had Pekins.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

If you aren't already feeding your birds 24% protein feed before adding a little bit of nutritional yeast to their diet, its not a concern. Some of us (self included) do for the first months, and that's real high (according to an old study, much maligned). If you are feeding a more typical 18-20% feed and add a bit of nutritional yeast, your total protein will still be below the levels I feed. Nor is high protein a guarantee of angel wing, only one old study suggests it becomes more frequent at very high (above 25%) protein levels.

White bread/high carbs and a vitamin deficiency are other strongly suspected causes.