Please help sex my peafowl!

[Arbor]

Next, I've seen it opined here on BYC (and maybe elsewhere? Having a senior moment...) that peach results (or resulted from) a cross of purple and cameo.  But I don't know if that has been verified, or is just a thought????

Basically, it has been proven. If you breed a peach male to a cameo hen, you end up with peach hens and cameo males (these males are then split to peach). The same would apply if you used a purple hen, but would end up with purple males. If you had a purple (or cameo) male bred to a peach hen, you should end up with similar results -purple (or cameo) males split peach and hens the colour of the father.

So to what extent, if any, are purple, peach and cameo alleles, or carried in related places on the sex chromosomes?  What happens when peaches, purples and cameos are interbred?  If peach really is a result of purple crossed with cameo, can it be uncrossed?  Can a peach throw purple and cameo chicks, or only peach?  Was peach a "one time" mutation, or is it something that requires having a purple gene plus a cameo gene?  Are any of them recessive to another?  Alleles?  Can a male be peach split purple or purple split peach?  Can a male have two purple genes and two peach genes?  And two cameo genes?

My answer to your previous paragraph contains some of the answers you asked in this one. I believe in theory, a peach could throw a purple or cameo (likely hens, unless bred to a purple or cameo). I've not heard of it yet, but that doesn't mean it hasn't. From all the origin stories I've heard, peach occurred twice at opposite ends of the US, so that being said, it could very well occur again. My question is how many times will we have to breed violetta to purple, peach or cameo to get another combo? When I finally get some violetta, that will be one of my breeding goals, but it will be purely based on luck!

 

[DylansMom]

Arbor, do you have an opinion on startingover's bird? Sex and color, the first batch of pics looked very cameo to me, but on the second batch I could maybe see the peach color. I don't know if I'll ever be able to tell the 2 apart very well.

 

[Arbor]

Arbor, do you have an opinion on startingover's bird? Sex and color, the first batch of pics looked very cameo to me, but on the second batch I could maybe see the peach color. I don't know if I'll ever be able to tell the 2 apart very well.

Hmm, post #67? I'd have to guess cameo hen, given the colour in the photos. The photos don't show all the required parts clearly. But I find that a pied bird tends to have more variation in feather colour, making it difficult to photograph a true-to-life colouring without a good camera.
As for sexing a bird when young, we've gotta find a better way than we do now...apart from guessing at photos or DNA sexing.

 

[DylansMom]

Hmm, post #67? I'd have to guess cameo hen, given the colour in the photos. The photos don't show all the required parts clearly. But I find that a pied bird tends to have more variation in feather colour, making it difficult to photograph a true-to-life colouring without a good camera.
As for sexing a bird when young, we've gotta find a better way than we do now...apart from guessing at photos or DNA sexing.

That birds father is supposed to be a Peach Silver Pied and possible moms are Pied, Silver Pied, White, and White Eyed. No mention of color on the hens so I'm assuming they were blue. That was why we were wondering if the Peach male could have produced a Cameo offspring. Very confusing and as for the sexing I agree completely, I'll be DNA sexing one shortly. Thanks for taking a look, I thought Cameo as well, but with the male being Peach it should be Peach if its a hen and blue if a male.

 

[Arbor]

Ah, a little reminder to myself to read the whole thread! If it were mine, and peach silver pied was indeed the father (assuming it really was peach silver pied and not cameo silver pied) then I would have assumed it peach for sure. Unless you have peach and cameo side by side, photos likely won't do the trick....

 

[DylansMom]

Unless you have peach and cameo side by side, photos likely won't do the trick....

Amen! And for me sometimes seeing them in person barely does the trick.

 

[zazouse]

From what i could see in photos that top breeders have the peach neck feathers are an orangy color even the bird itself looked a shade oranger if that makes any sence

but a cameos has a rich brown neck at least my cameo did.

 

[DylansMom]

From what i could see in photos that top breeders have the peach neck feathers are an orangy color even the bird itself looked a shade oranger if that makes any sence

but a cameos has a rich brown neck at least my cameo did.

On mine the orangest part is the tail right now. It was all broken off when I brought her home, but the feathers are growing out and it looks more orange every day.


This is her backside in the sun this afternoon. The Peaches fade like Cameos too, so the color will change as the feathers get older.

 

[zazouse]

Looks like a peach color to me , my cameos feathers came in tan looking not well peachy like that

 

[Garden Peas]

Originally Posted by Garden Peas

Next, I've seen it opined here on BYC (and maybe elsewhere?

Having a senior moment...) that peach results (or resulted from) a cross of purple and cameo. But I don't know if that has been verified, or is just a thought????

Basically, it has been proven. If you breed a peach male to a cameo hen, you end up with peach hens and cameo males (these males are then split to peach). The same would apply if you used a purple hen, but would end up with purple males. If you had a purple (or cameo) male bred to a peach hen, you should end up with similar results -purple (or cameo) males split peach and hens the colour of the father.

So to what extent, if any, are purple, peach and cameo alleles, or carried in related places on the sex chromosomes? What happens when peaches, purples and cameos are interbred? If peach really is a result of purple crossed with cameo, can it be uncrossed? Can a peach throw purple and cameo chicks, or only peach? Was peach a "one time" mutation, or is it something that requires having a purple gene plus a cameo gene? Are any of them recessive to another? Alleles? Can a male be peach split purple or purple split peach? Can a male have two purple genes and two peach genes? And two cameo genes?

My answer to your previous paragraph contains some of the answers you asked in this one. I believe in theory, a peach could throw a purple or cameo (likely hens, unless bred to a purple or cameo). I've not heard of it yet, but that doesn't mean it hasn't. From all the origin stories I've heard, peach occurred twice at opposite ends of the US, so that being said, it could very well occur again. My question is how many times will we have to breed violetta to purple, peach or cameo to get another combo? When I finally get some violetta, that will be one of my breeding goals, but it will be purely based on luck!

****
Arbor, thanks for the information above, I think it helps. And having just recently seen a photo of a violetta bird, I think I'm in love -- gosh what a beautiful color

I see why you want them.

If you don't mind continuing to be patient with me, I've been drawing little Punnett squares, and am still really unclear on the whole peach/purple/cameo business

I drew out the squares for the breedings you discussed: Peach male with cameo hen; Peach male with purple hen, Purple/cameo male with peach hen. If I am doing this correctly, using the results you mention, what I see is that peach behaves recessively to purple and peach also behaves recessively to cameo. But I don't understand clearly whether we are talking about three separate color genes (peach, purple and cameo each having a distinct gene) which may be alleles carried on the sex gene, or whether we are looking at two separate color genes (purple and cameo), which if both present on the sex gene result in a peach-colored bird?

In the latter case (where the genes are not alleles), a male would be carrying some combination of up to two purple and two cameo genes (presumably would need to have a mix), and a hen could be carrying two, and would have to have one of each to show peach (but only on her single sex gene -- I'm not saying this very well, sorry!). And if this is the case, it would seem as though, statistically, there would be a significant number of "uncrossed" offspring -- purple or cameo, but not both, so not peach. But what I'm hearing is that this isn't happening, at least not in significant numbers. So that makes it seem more like the peach is a different variant of one or the other genes (purple or cameo, that mutated), because it doesn't "uncross," at least not very often? And if I am doing the math correctly, if it were only two genes, they could NOT be alleles, because otherwise there would be no peach hens? They would have to both be able to occur on the same sex gene for a hen to carry them both, right? So therefore attaching at different places on that gene?

It seems to me the simplest solution (but maybe not the correct one) is that there are three separate genes or variants of the gene (purple, cameo, peach), that most likely are alleles. Do you know whether that is correct? Or is it still not determined?

Can you tell me what happens when you breed purple to cameo (other than the two times that peach showed up spontaneously)? Does purple or cameo behave recessively to the other?

Sigh. Now my head hurts

Thanks for your patience