Sumatra Thread!

[Chickenrandomness]

hi! post all you want about Sumatras! the're beatiful arn't they! i have one; Tanaga (indonesian for energy)

 

[NYREDS]

I am surprised at you NYREDS. Especially That day When Dsfrango Told us about that show. She had said That she didn't understand Why That bird placed over Hers. She thought the other birds head was way to big. she Even told Us that you Had said One of the main reasons Why you chose that bird over hers Was because of the head size and development. You Even admitted That you Were judging that show. So what's the point here. When I think of a large head think of well a Developed Head that has more of The capacity to be well rounded, short, With a small beak. That's the cool thing about large heads. Is the beaks are really small so What That means Is You can easily Breed that with another bird with a long beak and have all the chicks come out With short beaks and well-rounded heads. Haven't you realized That there is a limit to roundness in a medium sized head. I have to say The birds head has to get pretty large before The Birds Head gets out of proportion to the boby. The reason why say that is because Chickens have small heads compared to their bodies. Just saying.

and once again, I have no idea what your point is


Quote: Infnityhrt said

This is a good point but I'll say it even more directly: you don't know nearly as much as you think you do and if you did you write so poorly noone would ever know. I know you're young & the only cure for thst is time but instead of using this forum as an opportunity to learn you continue to argue with everyone. I was breeding & showing poultry 40 years before you were born. Consider the possibility I may know a little more than you.
What concerns me is that newcomers to this site may take you seriously because they don't know any better.

That's the cool thing about large heads. Is the beaks are really small so What That means Is You can easily Breed that with another bird with a long beak and have all the chicks come out With short beaks and well-rounded heads.

Here's a good example: the idea that crossing a bird with a "really small" beak with a bird with a long beak will result in all offspring having an ideal short, well- rounded beak is ridiculous. Breeding livestock isn't like mixing paint.

 

[ST3PH3N]

I feel I may have started a sort of misunderstanding when I posted that I thought sumatras should be "pheasant like" and personally breed toward those characteristics. My thoughts are that although the SOP does not use the word "pheasant", it is describing the bird choosing terms that also describe a pheasant's appearance. eg "fowl of graceful form and distinct carriage"

These fowl living wild in Sumatra would live very much like wild jungle pheasants do. Natural selection favored dark shiny plumage that blends into the deep forest shadows, and birds needed large eyes to see optimally in the dappled light. The birds would have run into dense bamboo thickets to escape predators weaving easily between the bamboo culms because of their "moderately long, firm, muscular, tapering body and compact stern". Because of human encroachment over a long period of time and the inevitable contact with domestic fowl possible crossbreeding occurred with the offspring raised wild and numerous colours developed.

When I go outside in the pouring rain and see my sumatras running through the garden enjoying themselves I am reminded that these are rainforest birds! They are not as domesticated as many breeds that were shaped by the desire or whim of the person breeding them, these birds were shaped by their environment. They can hatch and raise their own young, even still in feral settings. We should always let our sumatras hatch and raise their on broods as much as we can so we don't breed that out of them by accident because we only care about what they look like and forget who they are. And this brings me to the standard of perfection.

First of all, the whole reason for having the standard is to keep the birds the way they were when admitted to preserve the breed, end of story. So we have been given the physical description of the birds and we should use it to choose which birds to breed. But when I read the standard, I see a description of a wild bird. I see more then a "you win" or a "DQ" at a show, I see someone in the past trying to covey to us in the future with a mere physical description, the essence of the birds that we are now doing our best to preserve, the sumatra.

 

[Coop Scoop Boogie]

I am surprised at you NYREDS. Especially That day When Dsfrango Told us about that show. She had said That she didn't understand Why That bird placed over Hers. She thought the other birds head was way to big. she Even told Us that you Had said One of the main reasons Why you chose that bird over hers Was because of the head size and development. You Even admitted That you Were judging that show. So what's the point here. When I think of a large head think of well a Developed Head that has more of The capacity to be well rounded, short, With a small beak. That's the cool thing about large heads. Is the beaks are really small so What That means Is You can easily Breed that with another bird with a long beak and have all the chicks come out With short beaks and well-rounded heads. Haven't you realized That there is a limit to roundness in a medium sized head. I have to say The birds head has to get pretty large before The Birds Head gets out of proportion to the boby. The reason why say that is because Chickens have small heads compared to their bodies. Just saying.

Okay.....let me say this is NOT an attack but an opinion and discussion.

I don't completely agree with the statement. In breeding these two birds all the chicks could have
the genetic potential to have too long of a beak, too short of a beak and an ideal beak. Some of those
chicks WILL not have the beak you want, it's the luck of the draw so to say. Also ANY size head has no
limit to how round it is or isn't but I don't feel a perfectly round head is the most common head.

I feel I should add that if I ask a question I expect that some of the answers given will not be what I
agree with but others are giving me the points of view and I had asked for them by asking the question. I
am happy to discuss the differences of opinion in a fair manner, not an argument.

 

[ramirezframing]

If you read the description instead of going by the pic you will see what I am talking about ones agian. A bird with a un full tail is not going to do as well as a bird that dose have a full tail it corrcet confomation and you can ask any of the top breeders that have actually earned the title grand master exhibitor, grand master breeder, and is well known around the country for champion lines.

I was looking on the American Sumatra Association on the showbirdbid site and what they where talking about is how important it is to keep the large fowl sumatra's big and the bantams small because a lot of birds they are seeing in the show room are under weight in the large fowl and the bantams where to big. so it is either you are going to small or you are trying to make me look bad in front of every single person who reads this thread.

Why is it that you think everyone is talking about you unless they quote someone else's post? This isn't the first time you have gone after someone else, getting mad at them for saying something that you don't like, when they did not quote you or even say your name.

If anyone is showing a bird they should/need to breed to that breed's SOP to the T! Not just the parts they want or like. You say this all the time.

YOU were the one that stated how big your birds were a few pages back, none of us were even talking about you. Than once everyone said that you were breeding birds that were too big for the SOP, since it clearly says 4 for hens and 5 for cocks and you had said your birds were 7 for cocks and one was even 8, you started going after everyone and saying that WE were ruining your breeding reputation.

I have to ask you how WE ruined it? WE didn't state how big your birds were, YOU did. Than you said that you didn't know how big they were since you don't have a scale, trying to save your reputation. I don't believe you, since you came on here and were able to post exact weights of them and you tried to force a point that they were of correct weight since they had won something.

Didn't you just yesterday say how one should not go by what is written on the internet, but in the SOP.

So if all the show sumatras are bred to the SOP's weight of 4 for hens and 5 for cocks, than when talking about a small/big bird, one would mean size of body/ height.

I would guess that the top sumatra breeders took in all the information on this breed when they were young and just starting out with this breed. Not from just one person or one place, but where ever they could. Alot of times this means sitting back listening to someone else do the talking, even if you might not agree 100% with what is said.

I do hope that you figure out one day that not everyone is talking to/or about you, and that we may in fact might be trying to HELP you so that you can improve the breed along your journey. That is what this thread is about, after all. Learning to improve the birds we have and sharing our love for them.

 

[Infnityhrt]

Did I say that in order to be a good sumatra breeder or have good advice you have to be in the sumatra club... NO I did not all I was saying was that there is good information on there that is helpfu and ture.... And douge akers was probably talkingbout the weight infnityhrt had asked about what he ment and someone had just said that it was the weight and size he was talking about... But I think you should be asking doug what he ment instead of coming up with conclusions and I am also talking about my self just to let you know. I could be wrong but we will see.

I didn't ask what he meant, you were going on and on like you always do, and about what they said on showbirdbid site and I said to ask him, because I didn't interpret it to mean to breed them larger than the standard said, it said as large as possible so that would be 6 pounds, but then I said maybe ask him, because you can't seem to be able to read what people are saying and that if we all don't agree with you then we are all wrong. and I did post on that site asking him what he means yesterday, so guess we shall wait and see. I just don't get how you can say that weight isn't important, when it says its a disqualification if they are more than 20% over which is 4.8 pounds for a hen and 6 pounds for a male, but I am not going to keep doing this with you because you don't get it... weight is a DQ just like a wrong comb, white feathers in the wing but you can believe whatever you want, that's whats great about America, just because we don't agree with it, well we are entitled to our opinion too.

 

[ramirezframing]

Quote:
Back when I was a kid and my parents started a small back yard flock, we hadn't heard of it and Dad's grandparents had never vaccinated their chickens either. I know I don't as I don't really see the point in it, kinda like being NPIP. Once the tester pulls the blood for that test and sets the bird down, the bird can become infected from that point on with whatever and it still carries a negative test result till the next years testing. And NPIP doesn't even really test for the big things in my opinion. When it comes down to it the strong will live and the weak won't. I'd rather breed birds that are strong against a disease than medicate them and possibly their offspring as well if the disease is still present or comes back. Some vaccines will cause a positive on a test whether the bird is sick with it or not . Either way you will lose some birds. But this is just my two cents on it.

 

[NYREDS]

There are facts & there are opinins. People tend to be passionate about their opinions, there's nothing wrong with that and there's no reason why adults shouldn't be able to handle passionate discussion. Breed standards contain some facts eg: weight & colour. They also contain some subjective material that's subjest to opinion to some extent. Long back, short beak, are exaples of the sort of things people may not see in the same way. That said, some opinions may be better formed than others.
Facts are another matter: Sumatra cock birds should weigh 5 pounds. That's what the Standard says & it's pointless to argue about it. However, some time back in this thread a self-proclaimed Sumatra expert argued that their 8 1/2 pound Sumatras wouldn't deserve disqualification. A silly arguement as it was factually wrong.
Bottom line i that sometimes reasonable people will disagree & there's no reason to fear that and certainly no reason to withdraw from a discussion because people are passionately defending their opinions.

ramirezframing-what's your question about Sumatra heads?

 

[Infnityhrt]

I think first and foremost it should be about balance and symmentry when breeding birds, the head should fit the body. I think that you have to look at the whole bird. I am not sure how to describe it myself but they "fit" everything needs to flow, If the head is too big it would be just as bad as having a head to small, it has to be on each individual bird, personally I wouldn't want it to look like a big ol' tennis ball sitting on the bird, a tennis ball is what, three or four inches across? way to big for any head on a chicken LOL. I do like width between the eyes and understand round, it would be pretty much as broad as long and wide, but it should fit the bird. I do like a large dark eye also, with a little spark in it
I think that if you begin just focusing on one thing you begin to have birds that begin to look like they are pieced together.like they might of been made in frankenstien's shop.

 

[Coop Scoop Boogie]

First I'd like to apologize for the length this post will end up being.

The reason and purpose of my sumatras is for my pleasure......I don't like to show and it is a small
flock as I am not about selling for profit. I keep these birds because of their beauty. In my opinion
they are not a meat breed although they can be eaten. They are not bred to be the heavy bodied birds
meant for meat. They are not an egg production breed even though they do lay eggs that are quite
edible but not at production breed amounts. My birds are here because of how they look as a breed.
When people visit here they often think the sumatras are a hybrid between a chicken and a pheasant
and I do have both other breeds of chickens and some pheasants. I agree with them......sumatras don't
look like just a chicken and not just a pheasant either.

When I breed my birds it is to get birds that fit themselves.....are symmetrical. If I bred for big heads it would not fit the birds but I don't want a small head either......it must fit the bird. If I need my bird to have a shorter beak then I would breed to get a shorter beak, not a bigger head to hide the fact of a beak that is wrong. If my birds need longer tails then I breed for longer tails.....not shorter legs to hide the short-comings of an incorrect tail length. In my opinion breeding in faults to cover up faults is detrimental to the breed........breed for the correct birds......do the work.... and it does take time and work. I do try my best to keep a SOP correct bird but not every bird is going to be SOP correct. I enjoy discussing the ideas of what SOP is but it's hard when showing is thrown in as the only way to get SOP birds. To me showing is a venue of having your birds judge by others to how close to SOP they are and how well you are doing in your breeding program. Unfortunately some people who show are chasing ribbons and will breed any way they need to get those ribbons, and I am NOT saying anyone here is doing this. Judges are trained in what the SOP states but still in the long run they must use how they interpret the SOP and I am not saying they don't do this well but it's more that each judge has their idea of what the SOP is stating and this how one bird will win one show but not another, slight differences in how a judge thinks a bird represents the breed. But the judge can only judge what is in front of him and if those birds all have the same faults then he will place the ones that fit the SOP the best. This does not mean that bird is best from all sumatras, it only means it was the best bird at that show........ and more than likely the breeders
in an area are working towards the look of that bird because it won so a judge will end up seeing more of that type at shows and more of that type will be placed and the cycle continues. Showing is not required to breed good quality birds and there are lots of good breeders who don't show.

I hope I have not upset anyone and have explained my ideas so that everyone can understand. Lets discuss the breed and how to improve it. Lets discuss the points of the birds and how they fit the SOP. Leave the show ring out of it. The show ring is simply a gauge of how one is doing in that area of the country and against the people who show. I respect the opinions of judges, they are most often a good gauge of how good the birds presented to them are doing. Lets try to be open to others ideas but also understand that some of these ideas are not what others need. I think we will get farther with civil
open-minded chat.

off my soapbox now