The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[birdman55]

from my understandings the only people that would have the right to call their birds f1 stock are the people that imported the birds here....so gff and toni...if you bought stock from them and the birds you bought were indeed from the imported birds...then you would have f2 stock...and when your birds reproduced....then you would be giving out f3 stock...hope this helps

 

[blackbirds13]

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/592644/f1-f2-c1-question

 

[Pyxis]

Does anyone know of someone who is looking to sell a cemani cock or cockerel? I'm in need of one - I have three hens and two pullets, but no rooster! Most people would be really happy to hatch girls, but it seems with this breed I'm cursed with pullets, lol. I need a rooster for my flock. Would like to stay to Tonie Marie or GFF lines, as that is what I have, but at this point as long as the bird is good quality I'm probably not gonna be too picky. I'd just like to get one so I can at least start hatching my own eggs for myself and begin culling.

 

[birdman55]

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/592644/f1-f2-c1-question

im not agreeing with this at all....the true nature of f stock birds....are birds that are wild caught from their home country and brought to another would be the true f 1 stock....otherwise people that got there birds from someone would call there stock....f1...which wouldnt be true...same thing goes with pheasants...which i have done tons of research on finding pure red goldens....you have people that claim they have f stock...ask them for paperwork and no dice....so they cant call their stock f stock...kindof like the zoos....they import there birds and then they get paperwork to go with it...so they can say their stock is f stock...f stock birds are worth more then non f stock birds...and without paperwork for birds...you dont know what your getting without paperwork...and normally when you get import papers or f stock papers...your birds will come with a band identification number and it will correspond with the paperwork to prove those are indeed the birds...its like someone i recently spoke to about cemani...claimed to have imported their own line from singapore...i asked for import papers and they could send me everything but the paperwork to prove it indeed was their own line of f stock birds...so theory over that they took someone elses birds and was trying to pose to people that indeed those birds are my own line....which wasnt true...another example...gff has f1 stock they have importation paperwork incase the usda shows up and says whooa where is your paperwork for these birds to prove you can legally have these birds....they say here you go and everyone is happy...when they are sending me the shipment of cemani in a couple of weeks they are sending me vs9-3 which is stating that the birds are in clean health and where the birds are coming from....so i will have f2 stock with proof of where the bird came from so in case the usda shows up and says whoa....i can show them....this is where the f2 stock came from...i just read a couple of the first posts so maybe someone covered what i covered...but when you get these expensive birds make sure to get documentation...cause all it takes i one time for them to show up and say where did you get those...and without paperwork they can take your flock..."depopulate your flock"..as the department of agriculture import export guy kris said in michigan...without this document you would be illegally importing them into our state...every state is different so check your state laws on importation...

 

[misfitmorgan]

im not agreeing with this at all....the true nature of f stock birds....are birds that are wild caught from their home country and brought to another would be the true f 1 stock....otherwise people that got there birds from someone would call there stock....f1...which wouldnt be true...same thing goes with pheasants...which i have done tons of research on finding pure red goldens....you have people that claim they have f stock...ask them for paperwork and no dice....so they cant call their stock f stock...kindof like the zoos....they import there birds and then they get paperwork to go with it...so they can say their stock is f stock...f stock birds are worth more then non f stock birds...and without paperwork for birds...you dont know what your getting without paperwork...and normally when you get import papers or f stock papers...your birds will come with a band identification number and it will correspond with the paperwork to prove those are indeed the birds...its like someone i recently spoke to about cemani...claimed to have imported their own line from singapore...i asked for import papers and they could send me everything but the paperwork to prove it indeed was their own line of f stock birds...so theory over that they took someone elses birds and was trying to pose to people that indeed those birds are my own line....which wasnt true...another example...gff has f1 stock they have importation paperwork incase the usda shows up and says whooa where is your paperwork for these birds to prove you can legally have these birds....they say here you go and everyone is happy...when they are sending me the shipment of cemani in a couple of weeks they are sending me vs9-3 which is stating that the birds are in clean health and where the birds are coming from....so i will have f2 stock with proof of where the bird came from so in case the usda shows up and says whoa....i can show them....this is where the f2 stock came from...i just read a couple of the first posts so maybe someone covered what i covered...but when you get these expensive birds make sure to get documentation...cause all it takes i one time for them to show up and say where did you get those...and without paperwork they can take your flock..."depopulate your flock"..as the department of agriculture import export guy kris said in michigan...without this document you would be illegally importing them into our state...every state is different so check your state laws on importation...

But would the GFF stock your getting be F1 stock? I'm asking because isn't GFF on like their 3rd or 4th gen now off of what was the original imported birds? So by default you your would be F3 or F4 wouldnt they?

 

[boykin2010]

F1 and F2 has nothing to do with importation.
These are strictly breeding terms. Any bird A mated to bird B can produce F1 birds.
When you get your chicks from Greenfire, they are going to be *Your* Greenfire F1 birds. Your first birds.
Then when you breed those chicks together they will be *Your* F2 birds.

You might be getting GFF's F3, F4, or even F5, but they are *Your* F1 when you breed them together because they are yours.

Edited to mention: This term doesn't just apply to birds. It's to basically all animals where lineage needs to be traced.

 

[birdman55]

But would the GFF stock your getting be F1 stock? I'm asking because isn't GFF on like their 3rd or 4th gen now off of what was the original imported birds? So by default you your would be F3 or F4 wouldnt they?

it depend ....if they are still using the same birds they brought over...those birds would be f1...and then i would be receiving f2 stock .....however lets say....those birds brought over f1 mated and had offspring....this offspring would be f2....now if they took this offspring and not the original stock that was imported and mated it and then sent me birds...then i would be getting f3 stock...if they are breeding say f5 stock...then the offspring i would get would be f6....im going to have to call them about that one...kindof curious myself....thats for sure...they just emailed me yesterday

 

[Hatchery Hive]

But would the GFF stock your getting be F1 stock? I'm asking because isn't GFF on like their 3rd or 4th gen now off of what was the original imported birds? So by default you your would be F3 or F4 wouldnt they?

GFF had a massive raccoon attack 1 year ago and lost a ton of their import cemanis... like 90%....
Someone who posts here, (Ill let him confirm and ID himself)
had to bail GFF out, by trading with them his mix of TM and I believe Mikes lines...

Sooo..... If I am remembering this right.... There you are....
GFF = F????

and I could care less.

Why?
because This is good news: (not the raccoon attack)
the good news is that soon we will all have all these lines mixed and culled out across the nation....
making a true new nationwide American Cemani standard....
Which I am all for.

Bottom line:
as long as they are not some cross species hybrid, but are a pure cemani line mix...
and...
If they are hatching more consistently jet black, with that cool game look and
with the black, green and purple, scarab beetle sheen feathers...
They are Cemani and I want them... and sooo will others...

 

[blackbirds13]

Quote:
In my understanding of the terms as explained to me by a long time breeder when I first started with chickens and learning about breeding techniques. Another's breeders generational filial status does not transfer to the buyer. You start with your birds and breed them to create your own initial F1 and then breed those forward to create F2. If you line breed then the succession changes. If someone sells you their F5 birds, you when breeding them together create your own F1 and your own line of birds after a number of generations. I was told generally at the F5 generation you can reasonably call the birds your own as you have probably made enough choices by then to really affect your flock's status apart from the originating one. When I bought birds from GFF despite their prior breeding program they became by starting point and their first chicks that I hatched were my F1. When I sold them I was on my F4 birds but those that bought them will hatch their F1's this spring. That's how I was told and believe it works.

Quote:
This sounds a bit strange to me. Why would GFF not outsource to buyers of their own lines if they had the need? They deal in some decent numbers with some breeders. I have learnt to take what some folks claim around here with an enormous grain of salt.

I was contemplating this breed again as I sold of my 2 TM roosters last year but miss the birds so trying to decide on one breed to restart with but I think I'll lurk around a bit more and learn a bit more first.

 

[birdman55]

looks like i will have to do some research on this...f status in birds...cause i would like a better understanding.