The American Paint Silkie

[Three Cedars Silkies]

Because Bren and Deb debuted the American Paint silkie at the Shawnee, OK show, we decided to go ahead and put up an official thread for discussion.

For the past 15 years, Sigrid Van Dort (Netherlands) has been working on European paint silkies. There are actually many European breeders with them and I have included a few links that may interest you.

The story of how the American paints were started is below. Judy Lee, from Tennessee is the breeder and these are her words:


"Here is the story of how the American Paints started. I have been a back yard Silkie owner (not breeder, not necessarily an enthusiast) just a person who enjoys the fuzzy little beasts. Never went to a show, or knew anyone else that had any. Never had an incubator, just whatever hatched was welcomed. I had two black hens, but never could find a black rooster, so after a while, I allowed my white rooster to breed the black hens so they wouldn't be completed wasted. One of the chicks was a grayish bluish splash color …I still have him. One winter it was SO cold I decided to put everyone together and heat one big room for them, a total of about 10 chickens. I thought that I would separate them in spring when they started laying again. I was a little late on one hen, and she was already sitting on a clutch so I just left her alone and let her hatch them. I went out and checked under the white hen that had been bred to that bluish little rooster and along with the other mish mash of babies was a white chick with distinct black spots. I picked it up and said to myself "hmmmm". I had never had one like THAT before. So I continued allowing those two to breed, but never got any more. Then when that one spotted chick grew to be a hen, I allowed the same grayish rooster to breed her, and still years went by with my hopes always to get another few spotted Silkies. Then after 4 years, all of a sudden in one clutch there were 4 out of 11 all beautifully spotted babies. I didn't know if this was common but I knew that I liked them and wondered if there were more out in silkie land somewhere. I ended up talking to Deb Steinberg, and told her what I had and wondered if there were more. I was curious about whether silkie breeders would accept them if I was able to make a bunch of them. She told me that projects like this had been tried many times, and the truth is that usually, the project fails because of lack of continuing on for various reasons. But she said if you REALLY get this going, let us know. She said there were birds similar to this in the Netherlands developed by a geneticist, and they were called “paint silkies”. I was encouraged to some degree so I thought I would give it a shot. Now I had one grown bird and 4 chicks. When they all grew up, I wound up with two roosters and two hens and the original spotted hen. I bred those together and then had fourteen. When I had fourteen spotted birds…about a year later… I tried to contact Deb again, but my computer had died and took her contact information with it. I searched around and found a past ASBC official and decided to ask them about it. This person told me that I had no idea what I was doing (and they were right)... that there was no such thing as a "Paint Silkie", and I made the whole thing up. They were very discouraging. They told me what it takes to get a color recognized and what a daunting task it is. So I let my enthusiasm die some, but kept breeding my birds, and then one day came across Debs info again and decided to call her, as she had seemed much more interested. I told her I now had fourteen spotted birds and sent pictures. SHE WAS SO EXCITED!!! Deb and Bren came out here to see my little program, talked chickens and took pictures of every feather, of eyeballs, pink toes, etc. They mailed pictures to Sigi the geneticist in The Netherlands. I never new there was so much to know about a chicken. When they left, I was overwhelmed, but so excited that this could be something really big. She told me my birds would be known as American Paint Silkies. Deb and Bren took home a few grown birds, mostly solid colored with the Paint gene, and a bunch of chicks, all with Paint genes. I was grateful for the information, grateful for the enthusiasm and for them taking their time to make such a big trip. I have been educating myself since then so I can do justice to this wonderful thing that started all by accident."

What most of us agree on is that these birds are dominant white (I/I homozygous and I/i+ heterozygous) are responsible for the development of these birds. What is the “paint gene”? No one knows at this time, but we will be working toward finding out.

Below is a photo of the “grayish, bluish, splash” male that was the sire of the first paint chick. He is now about 8 or 9 years old. I’ll post a pic of the hen as soon as I can find it. Below the pic of Adam are the links for European paint sites.

Let the questions begin!

http://sites.google.com/site/zijdehoenders/asa-newsletter-3-platenbont-1

http://sites.google.com/site/zijdeh...lor-genetics-heritage/moroseta-exspecialities

http://www.scribd.com/doc/22315978/platenbont

 

[Kev]

I had a question about paints. Sorry if it was asked before, but I've just been having so much trouble finding a specific answer:
I had a mix between a Red Pyle OEGB and Silver Sebright and these bred with a Showgirl Silkie rooster. There were four chicks hatched, all of which were spotted. The two males were white with red spots and the two females were white with black spots, just like paints. This makes me wonder, was it because the Naked Neck silkie had pink skin and may have been a cross-bred of some sort that dominant white would be found in this line?

Also, the original OEGB and Sebright cross produced hens that were creamy white with a few tiny black dots on them, but I thought that Red Pyle was caused by recessive white? Why would black leak through in this case?

Nice long post. For necessity I will over simplify some things.

Red pyle is dominant white over the red duckwing pattern.

Dominant white(from now on DW) has a strong effect on black pigments and very little on red/gold pigments. That is how you get the Pyle pattern.. the black pigmented areas were "blocked" with the red/brown/golds showing through much more strongly.

A solid white chicken based on DW is genetically a solid black chicken. Put DW on that and you have the DW gene 'stopping' the black and so the result is a solid white chicken.

Recessive white basically interrupts all pigment production, both black and red/gold. So a red duckwing with recessive white would be all white instead of pyle. Example, quite a lot of white silkies are partridge 'under' their white. This is why breeding white with color= some/many partridge chicks is such a common result... as it essentially is doing a partridge(rendered hidden by recessive white) bred with (color).

Silver sebrights are a birchen base bird. basic Birchen is mostly black with some color on neck, a little o breast on the hens, color on hackles, saddle and wing patch area on the roosters.

Lacing is due to a combination of several different genes plus one gene(Db) on a birchen base gives the Sebright lacing pattern. Your pyle OEGB lack all of those genes so what you did was essentially cross a genetically mostly black chicken(sebright) with dominant white birds(the pyles)- your Banshees were a perfect example of what to expect from this kind of cross.

While DW is dominant, in reality it is pretty rare for any dominant gene to be 100% dominant. Basically for whatever reason, a fair number of birds with only one copy of DW tend to have some black spots showing through. I'm not sure why the variation either, it seems there is some kind of effect where you can try to breed for either "cleaner" or "spottier" in a line via selection. Birds pure for DW so far seem pretty reliable for being solid white/showing far less color. Anyways the Banshees having only one copy of DW 'opened the door' for some black spots to show through.

The red/buff/brown showing through is a different issue, it is due to the bird not being genetically solid black. A solid black chicken requires either the extended black or birchen gene plus modifier genes that cover up the colored areas. It's a common struggle for breeders trying for solid blacks or blues in dealing with off color showing up. Same basic idea.

Noel is showing genes from the sebright ancestry, some of the genes required are dominant/semi dominant, it simply floated down hidden under the white for generations so when you bred to another color it 'finally had a chance to show up'. (pretty bird btw) He won't actually throw dalmatians as he does not have dominant white... but if bred with a paint or DW hen, there can be some chicks with spots, but the blue is also a dilutor of black, so the chicks that might otherwise be spotty might look whiter or lighter due to the blue diluting 'away' some spots however there can be a few birds showing blue spots though.

For concentrated effort on producing paints/dalmatians it is best to breed with either other paint/dalmatians or black/blue chickens, especially if they were out of this kind of project as there can be a chance they carry the unknown/hidden "helper genes" that help with the spottiness.

 

[debstein]

I had pics of the paint chicks when they hatched, but my puter died and I must have lost those. The best paints hatch with their spots bright and bold. If the spots are distinctive at hatch, they will grow with the chick and be loudly colored as adults. Some have a few faint spots, and develop more as they grow, but those are never loud colored - at least mine haven't been. And a few hatch out white, and then develop some spots later, but again - not loud paint. I'm sure that Judy can provide chick pics, she has taken a lot of them over the years. And I have also hatched some chicks from these lines that I believe are recessive white - they hatch out a light blue color, but then feather in completely white as adults. Curiouser and curiouser........

Skin color is generally even all over the body, except for the pigment holes on the soles, if the bird has them at all. I have quite a few paints now that have solid black feet. Pigment holes in the eyes look like a tiny light dot in the iris, very difficult to photograph, but you know it when you see it.

The biggest challenge is the 'dirty color' that develops mostly on the males, and has been documented on the European paints as well. However, in the European paints it is said to be red leaking through, and on ours it is more like a brown color that develops on the feather tips. It is something that has to be culled out and Sigs said that they have gotten rid of it in some of the European paint lines.

 

[Three Cedars Silkies]

Here is a pic of a paint babies.

 

[Fur N Feathers]

Here is the paint boy all grown up, at least he thinks so.

 

[MrOrpington16]

My paint silkie pullet

Is she show quality ????

 

[kabhyper1]

My babies hatched! One left to go. 4 blacks and a pink skinned white. Soooooo that was unexpected. They come from good breeding. I don't have spotted paints to breed to them though. Black and black will make black right? Or is there a chance for a paint in that breeding?
Here they are! They come from really nice paints, I just got less spots than I had planned for, but I love them anyway.

 

[kabhyper1]

These spots crack me up. They look like a 5 on dice.

 

[Coops4me]

Very nice looking..Here are a couple of my paints. There 5 months old now. Would like someone nice enough to show.

 

[Iluvmysilkies]

Look at this cutie that finally hatched late today Look at all those spots! My boys are doing a good job lol. Her lil toes were a lil curly so I just put booties on them just to avoid any issues.