Thoughts on organic chicken feed. What is your opinion?

[U_Stormcrow]

Well, for your information, I'd hardly say that Amy Fewell is only concerned with making a pretty website. She just so happens to be the founder of the Homesteaders of America, alongside publishing 3 books, one being titled The Homesteader's Natural Chicken Keeping Handbook. She is an herbalist and has published a book alongside Joel Salatin titled The Homesteader's Herbal Companion. She and her husband also own their own farm. I think she may know a think or two about chickens and running a farm. I'd encourage you to check her out, especially before making your own ignorant comments.

Math doesn't lie.

That's not a recipe. Its note even a collection of recipes. Its merely a list of ingredients to be thrown together in innumerable combinations, with innumerable (and widly variable) outputs, few if any of which would hit minimum recommends for modern feed formulations.

and if you don't understand the problem in simultaneously saying "free choice" and "not to exceed 5%" about the same ingredient, I submit that you should probably hit the books some more.

She may well be an authority on other things, but she's clearly not to be relied on for making chicken feed at home - Joel has a useful, working, RECIPE. If the writer of that website understood why Joel's recipe worked, how the ingredients worked together, and why the ratios he uses are the ratios he uses, they wouldn't have written that website as they did. Joel also has a system, and if you use his recipe without his system, you invite other problems.

here, I'll help - Salatin's broiler recipe:

52% corn — For carbohydrates
29% roasted soybeans — For protein
11% crimped oats — These are a source of protein and carbs, but Salatin primarily includes oats because of the fiber in the hulls.
3.5% Sea-Lac brand fish meal — He prefers this brand because of their low-heat processing, which helps preserve vitamins and minerals. The other purpose of fish meal is to provide animal protein.
3% Fertrell Nutri-Balancer — For vitamins and minerals. (See below.)
1% feed grade limestone — For calcium
0.5% kelp meal — For minerals. Salatin recommends choosing kelp meal grown in cold water and dried geothermally.
0.1% Fastrack probiotic — To promote digestion and boost the immune system. This brand name product is produced by Conklin Co., Inc., and Salatin says they have the highest percentage of Lactobaccillus acidophilus, without the fillers found in other brands of probiotics

Every one of us could follow that, and get the same output (w/i reasonable variation for local differences in corn, roasted soybean, and crimped oats, of course)

and here's his layer ration:

49.7% corn
30.8% roasted soybeans
10.9% oats
5.0% feed grade limestone
3.0% Fertrell Nutri-Balancer
0.5% Thorvin brand kelp meal

Again, we can all follow that and end up with similar outputs.
and FWIW, I wrote a book too. and live on a hobby farm. and know a thing or three about chicken nutrition. Not really the sociable type, no interest in forming or running a group for anyone. But don't take my word for it, do the math for yourself.

{For purposes of Clarity, I cut and pasted Salatin's recipes from here - complete with their comments, not always the comments I would make. I've found Salatin's recipes posted elsewhere, substantially identical to this, but this is the one I have bookmarked, so its the one I used. Salatin doesn't make his own stuff free to link - got to sell more books, after all - and that's fine by me, it his labor, he can value it any way he wants.}

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Thanks, good points. Although many schools of thought believe knowing what one's ancestors ate is something to consider, and YES, of course species evolve and diets change too. To clarify, Tractor Supply already talked me into buying a huge bag of organic chick starter/grower for $45 or something so to be honest I'd like to use it up first. But as I mentioned, it's just corn with supplemental vitamins. Kellog's can add a full spectrum of vitamins and minerals to your cereal and no matter what they told us for 50 years, at the end of the day it's still cereal and you're not going to get much out of it. We had Manna medicated starter before that which was also just corn. I haven't explored a lot of other brands and maybe there are some great ones. I'd love to know what commercially available food you do recommend. What do you feed your chickens? Do you supplement their primary feed with anything?

Tractor supply for feed advice is barely better than going to Facebook or You tube.

For the majority of back yard owners, in the majority of backyard conditions, most posters active on the feed forum (including myself) will recommend an All Flock/Flock Raiser-type formulation with free choice oyster shell for all of your birds, all of their lives - plus plenty of fresh clean water, and a source of grit, of course.

Organic or not is a personal choice - Organic is not inherently more nutritious. Often, its not. But there are other reasons to choose Organic, I'll not tell someone they are wrong for feeding organic any more than I'll tell they they are wrong for not feeding organic. Those are very personal and highly subjective choices. Now, if you want to compare guaranteed nutritional lables, I'll tell you which I consider to be better, and why - but "organic" is the absolute last factor I look at, if everything else is identical (and it never is)

I don't feed my own birds the way I recommend, but my flock size and management are not like most BYCers, and I'm willing to take some educated risks in the name of cost controls.

 

[BeefQuesoritto]

When I first started, I did feed organic, because it was the only feed at the feed store that wasn't medicated and I didn't want to use antibiotics willy-nilly. But I was unhappy with it, especially the protein content, and switched as soon as I could find unmedicated normal feed.

Organic... I've begun to have some concerns about it. Some of it seems so counter intuitive? Some gmo corn is coming out with bT toxic (which is used in organic farming) that the corn exudes itself. Harmless to humans and bees. It'd mean less pesticide use. Ofc that does come with some of the nastiness of GMO patents, which is despicable. But, really, I mean... Wouldn't that be better?

And pyrethrin vs permethrin, which I've been talking about a lot recently (or it feels that way). Pyrethrin being a natural chemical from crysanthemums, is actually grown in the global south (idk the politically correct way to say third world country, hope this is right), taking the place of food crops. But the synthetic version (permethrin, in the family of pyrethroids) isn't allowed for use in organic farming, even though it doesn't come with these global conundrums and consequences.

Anyway... The formulation of homemade feed has been fascinating to follow all over the forum. Especially your work @U_Stormcrow so thanks very much for your time and effort. At one point I had the idea that I could whip one up, but it's more daunting than I thought, and I'd rather coast off someone else's work and buy feed at the store. My chickens are probably going to end up in a cookpot before they're old enough to get cancer from all that glyphosate, anyway.

I do have an "emergency ration" recipe for, I don't know, the end of the world? Using crops I can grow myself and buttermilk from the sheep. Until then-- or never-- it's commercial feed.

 

[3KillerBs]

what commercial options do you recommend that include a better variety of ingredients besides corn?

Corn is, in itself, not evil. The evilness of corn is propaganda -- largely promoted by people who will gain either money or prestige by selling you something else.

Corn is only a problem when it's over-fed -- but so is any other grain.

Problem 2) is assuming modern birds do well on acient diets. They don't. It takes much higher levels of nutrition, consistently, to allow a modern bird to produce the size of the eggs they do at the frequency they do, when compared to their ancient (or even turn of last century) counterparts.

As always when this comes up, I link this poultry handbook from 1921 -- provided to farmers with the goal of getting a profitable 100 eggs per hen per year from LEGHORNS! https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/poultry-for-the-farm-and-home.1443907/

The worst layer I've had, a Brahma, did better than that.

These are NOT great-grandma's chickens anymore.

 

[Heirloom Grown]

Interesting comment at the end.

Corn is, in itself, not evil. The evilness of corn is propaganda -- largely promoted by people who will gain either money or prestige by selling you something else.

Corn is only a problem when it's over-fed -- but so is any other grain.



As always when this comes up, I link this poultry handbook from 1921 -- provided to farmers with the goal of getting a profitable 100 eggs per hen per year from LEGHORNS! https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/poultry-for-the-farm-and-home.1443907/

The worst layer I've had, a Brahma, did better than that.

These are NOT great-grandma's chickens anymore.

You said that these are not grandma’s chickens anymore. I totally understand that production breeds need higher nutrition for their high level of egg output, but what about heritage breeds. What about the breeds that grandma was raising! They lay less eggs but lay over a longer time period (Livestock conservancy says 5-7 years). Since these are the breeds that grandma was raising can they live on homemade feeds and food scraps like they used to? Not trying to be contrary just wanted to bring this up and get everyone’s thoughts.

Thanks

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Interesting comment at the end.

You said that these are not grandma’s chickens anymore. I totally understand that production breeds need higher nutrition for their high level of egg output, but what about heritage breeds. What about the breeds that grandma was raising! They lay less eggs but lay over a longer time period (Livestock conservancy says 5-7 years). Since these are the breeds that grandma was raising can they live on homemade feeds and food scraps like they used to? Not trying to be contrary just wanted to bring this up and get everyone’s thoughts.

Thanks

"Heritage" breeds have been taken over by commercial hatcheries popping them out for sale at the TSCs, Rural Kings, and Ace Hardwares of the world - and how do they make their money??? By selling eggs to retailers. So what have they selected for??? You got it.

Its why so many "dual purpose" breeds from hatchery stock stay (relatively) small, and why some breeders have spent years (in some instances, decades) trying to breed size back into their lines. There are a few reputable breeders out there, who may be able to help. There are many more who maybe bought birds from one of those superior lines, and have bred willy nilly since, trading on the reputation of their source, i.e., "Henry Noll" New Hampshires. Which apparantly you can get all over Craigslist...

Many birds can live on much less than modern feed - but they won't do well on it. and I don't know where this pernicious thought about "home made feed" comes from, but to quote Inigo Montoyo, "You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means".

There are books and books and books about turn of the century recipes for feeding birds, and they are generally much better - for all that they didn't understand all the science - than most of the crap being posted on Facebook, Youtube, and various websites. They had every reason to try and get it right, together with decades or centuries of experience modern man has seemingly not bothered to simply look up.

 

[3KillerBs]

What about the breeds that grandma was raising!

They've still been dramatically improved over the past century.

My Brahma, a breed not noted for high production, managed to out-lay those 1921 Leghorns. She was my 4 egg a week bird.

My Australorps, Wyandottes, large-fowl Cochin, and even my Mottled Java -- a breed that hasn't been worked on much due to being less popular than their descendants (they contributed to many of the breeds we consider classic barnyard chickens) -- lay in the 200-250 egg per year range at least in their first year.

There are books and books and books about turn of the century recipes for feeding birds, and they are generally much better - for all that they didn't understand all the science - than most of the crap being posted on Facebook, Youtube, and various websites. They had every reason to try and get it right, together with decades or centuries of experience modern man has seemingly not bothered to simply look up.

It's been a while since I read that book I linked, but IIRC every one of the feed recipes in that book required a thing known as "meat scrap" -- which was once apparently readily available and which doesn't seem to exist at all anymore.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

They've still been dramatically improved over the past century.

My Brahma, a breed not noted for high production, managed to out-lay those 1921 Leghorns. She was my 4 egg a week bird.

My Australorps, Wyandottes, large-fowl Cochin, and even my Mottled Java -- a breed that hasn't been worked on much due to being less popular than their descendants (they contributed to many of the breeds we consider classic barnyard chickens) -- lay in the 200-250 egg per year range at least in their first year.



It's been a while since I read that book I linked, but IIRC every one of the feed recipes in that book required a thing known as "meat scrap" -- which was once apparently readily available and which doesn't seem to exist at all anymore.

"meat scrap" is not legally allowed to be used anymore, per the FDA. Its a term of art, which after digging into some of those old books, was often given an average (but highly variable) value as roughly 10% water (+/-), 55% Protein, 2 1/4% Fiber, 10 3/4% fat, 8 1/4% Calcium.

Again, HIGHLY variable. Its important enough that there is case law about it. (Which may give a hint as to why the FDA eventually stepped in and started regulating).

The modern replacement for "meat scrap" (a rather generic term) are the various animal meals - fish meal, crab meal, shrimp meal, chicken meal, etc - each of which has its own range of values typical to the ingredient, but is somewhat more certain than simply an "unknown meat", ground and dried, with some amount of bone included.

 

[Heirloom Grown]

Thank you all for the information. It makes since that these heritage breeds have been bred just like the production breeds for high production. Some day I would like to buy my chickens from Sandhill preservation in IA. I believe he tends and breeds his chickens not for production and egg laying.
@U_Stormcrow love the quote. To clarify what I mean when I say “homemade feed” I mean whole grains, vegetable scraps, meat, insects, etc. Things that are closer to their intended diets in the wild. Yes I know I know you will say but in the wild they do not lay eggs like they do on a farm. I do not mean going all the way to a wild diet but more of a diet with real food not pelletized or crumbled feed. Also thank you so much for the info about Joel Salatin’s feed! I have really wanted to know what he feeds because I fell he takes both what the chickens truly need and what we can do more naturally while not just throwing grain at them and saying it’s gray jus because it is natural.

 

[arazla]

@U_Stormcrow @NatJ I'd love your opinion on the following if you have time. We're due to buy more feed and I've discovered that one of my local mills carries Nutrena only and the other makes their own mix. What appears to be the best choice between these two for a small flock of 2.5 months old chicks comprised of 5 hens and 3 roosters? (although we're still secretly hoping one of the late developers only looks like a rooster now, ha ha) They are both at very reasonable prices.

NATURE SMART® organic grower
20% (WI)
Crude Protein..................Min. 20.0 %
Lysine.........................Min. 1.0 %
Methionine.....................Min. 0.32 %
Crude Fat......................Min. 2.5 %
Crude Fiber....................Max. 6.0 %
Calcium............Min. 0.75 % Max. 1.25 %
Phosphorus.....................Min. 0.5 %
Salt...............Min. 0.25 % Max. 0.6 %
Sodium.............Min. 0.18 % Max. 0.24 %
Selenium.......................Min. 0.3 ppm
Vitamin A......................Min. 3,300 IU/LB
Vitamin D3.....................Min. 1,000 IU/LB
Vitamin E......................Min. 20.0 IU/LB
Lactobacillus acidophilus......Min.10.2 mil CFU/LB
Lactobacillus casei............Min.10.2 mil CFU/LB
Bifidobacterium thermophilum...Min.10.2 mil CFU/LB
Enterococcus faecium...........Min.10.2 mil CFU/LB
Organic Ground Corn, Organic Soybean Meal, Organic Wheat Middlings,
Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium Phosphate,
Organic Soybean Oil, Salt, Citric Acid (a preservative), Sodium Bicarbonate,
Yeast Culture, Dried Penicillium funiculosum Fermentation Extract, Choline
Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, DL-Methionine, Selenium Yeast, Dried
Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei
Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium thermophilum Fermentation
Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Vitamin A
Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin
Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine
Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of
Vitamin K activity), Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Ferrous Sulfate,
Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite,
Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide.
Contains a source of live (viable) naturally occurring microorganisms.

The one that makes their own feed didn't send me a very clear picture, but keeping in mind the methionine and lysine requirements stormcrow emphasized it seems better. On the other hand, it's higher fat (I don't know if that's good or bad) and there's no information on other vitamins. We don't plan on eating our chickens. Mostly hoping for eggs, but they've also become pets.