Vet suggestion for non-invasive bumblefoot cure

[ArizonaNessa]

A close friend of mine has been having horrible problems with her flock getting bumblefoot. I sent her many links and pictures from this forum to help her and had extensive conversations with her numerous times about preventing it and how to actually do the "surgery" for it. Unfortunately she has a VERY weak stomach and just couldn't go through with the procedure herself. I advised her that if she didn't do the "surgery" that the birds would surely continue to suffer and eventually die. I also talked to her quite a bit about her ground coverings and things that could be causing this to happen in her flock so often. Since this person volunteers at a raptor rescue I told her it might be wise (since she can't do this herself) to talk with the avian vet on call and see if she might do the procedure for her. She did take my advise and the vet did the procedure on the one bird that was extremely serious at that point. Then to my surprise she didn't want to do it on the other bird.

Instead she suggested soaking the foot for 5 minutes a day in Tricide-Neo powder for FISH. She warned my friend to be careful as to not get the solution on herself. I have no idea as to why. Anyway to make a long story short after about a week of soaks the bird no longer has bumblefoot and never had to be cut open. The vet mentioned that they had been using this for sometime and were having great results with it.

I just wanted to pass along this information for those that might be like my friend, needing a solution other than cutting into the foot itself.

 

[dawg53]

Hello everyone. We are currently dealing with our first case of bumble foot. We have read through the thread and find a lot of helpful info. But, the frustrating part is that so many people post about trying out Tricide-Neo and say they will update. We can't find any posts with the actually updates or results. Has anyone actually successfully used the Tricide-Neo?

Welcome to BYC.
I have used Tricide Neo and it was successful clearing up small to medium sized bumblefoot infections. There's much longer soaking times for larger bumblefoot infections.
If you have the time and patience soaking a birds foot each day, twice a day for one week rather than doing minor surgery, Tricide Neo is your answer.

 

[mdbokc]

I now have 2 girls with small bumblefoot. We are going to experiment with two products, one on each bird. The first is North American Herb and Spice P73 super strength Oregano. I have successfully used to to cure MRSA when antibiotics all failed. I want to see the results here.

The second is Grapefruit Seed Extract by Nutribiotic. IT also is very successful at taking care of staph infections. Starting the treatments tonight.

Would not have thought of these had not been for this thread on soaking treatment.

Thanks.

 

[Funky Feathers]

I have tried many, many things. I am now trying the Tricide-Neo. I think that, Preparation H (alternating these 2 - Tricide-Neo every am & Prep H every night) is the best treatment I have found, and Nettie's duck shoes help keep poop out & meds. in and give them some soft cushioning to walk on. I also lined their wood floor w/heavy duty plastic. Check out my results:

1/26/10

1/26/10

now:

3/27/10

3/27/10

What a difference, yes?

 

[Kazzandra]

IT WORKS!

Thanks SO MUCH for the idea: thank your vet, too, ArizonaNessa! I hope this thread provides hope for others who have just been faced with the horrour of doing surgery on their animal without pain relief and with the potential of reinfection afterwards!

Today I was able to push out the infection from one of my hens with little pain to her and no blood. The infection was dead. I'll tell you how I did it!

I used Tricide Neo every other day ($20 a gallon or $55 dollars a gallon with FREE SHIPPING at http://www.koiacres.com/Koi-Acres-Products/tricide-neo.html) with Nettie's chicken shoes all the time (www.indoorducks.com, $9 a pair) with Neosporin and Prep H in the shoe. Because I was waiting for the shoes, they've been on this treatment for nine soaks, three with Nettie's shoes. The shoes were the key here, as I was able to place their wet feet in them and the Tricide Neo seems to keep working that way. Also, no dirt puts pressure on the infection or potentially reinfects the foot. Of course, follow the directions on the packet. I used distilled water from the get-go and had no problems.

I soak each chicken's feet (3 chickens total) for 5-7 minutes every other day or so. I bring the bucket in the coop and have treats on hand to make it easier. After the first few times, everyone chills out about it and pretty much stays in the bucket without resistance. I then flip them on their back in my lap and use a toothbrush pre-soaked with Tricide-Neo solution to scrub away dirt and as much scab as I can until I see what looks alive. I then apply Neosporin to the little dip this eventually creates and put on their shoes, which I've already pretreated with a good apmount of Neosporin and a pea-sized drop of Preperation H. The shoes do not interfere with any chicken behaviour, from roosting to scratching, and after the initial introduction, they seemed to forget they were on.

You can use very, very little for three chickens and not have to change it between them. I got ten soaks out of a gallon, and I could have gotten more if I hadn't overestimated how much it would take the first time I used it. The shoes could be expensive if you have a severely infected flock, but Nettie does offer discounts for these.

So with one hen I cured today, I noticed the infection was rather loose-- it just seemed like I could move it a little more each day with the toothbrush. I squeezed it after the soak and out it popped! She now has a lot of loose skin on her foot, so I filled the crevice that the cleared infection created with some Neosporin and put her shoe back on (she only had it on one foot). I can see that in a few more treatments, the others will have this happen, too. It's getting looser and deader every time.

I have three different cases of severity-- this hen with only one infection, another hen with two feet infected, and a rooster (featured earlier) with it probably in his bones-- it certainly made sores all over his toes. So I'll keep reporting in to tell you how it works with the rooster long-term, but I see success in my future! His are kind of loose now, and I wouldn't be surprised if I can get it out in a week.


Quote:
A Silver-Spangled Hamburg hen, Celes. Golden-Spangled Hamburgs are featured in Chaucer's Nun's Priest's Tale (Chauntecleer and Pertelote). She's a light-weight, but she has layed almost everyday for coming up on three years.


Brabants thinks his shoes are nifty!

 

[ArizonaNessa]

I do not raise fish nor have I ever actually used this powder myself. My friend was offered the powder through the vet that tended her bird so I am not sure if you have to get it from a vet or not. I am going to ASSUME that this is a powder that can be bought online or maybe in a serious fish store. She mixed up the "dip" as suggested on the packaging.

Yes we came to the conclusion that there were thorns/stickers spread through her rock landscape after removal and trimming of some cacti. Remember I am in Arizona so cacti and desert plants sometimes can be an issue for us in this part of the country. She has taken care of the situation but not before enduring some serious heartaches. She lost 2 last year and it wasn't until the second one that I even realized what was going on and was able to help her. Of the 2 recent hens, one was barely with us because it had gotten so bad and she had done everything that anyone of us would or could do for her bird short of cutting. This was the bird that the vet did the procedure on and injected with meds. The other bird was treated with the Tricide-Neo powder for fish with great results.

Thank you Intheswamp for posting the link. I started not to post this because it was not my personal flock but some other members here encouraged me to share since I did have all the facts on the situation. I realize that there are many out there that can't afford to take a chicken to the vet or they can't stomach the surgical things. I do hope that it helps others.

Edited to add: The causes of it in Arizona can be from a wide range of things but it is my experience that it is most common in areas with a lot of cacti and this weed that we have here that I call goat-head weeds. Sorry I am not big into plants so I don't know the proper name but when it runs through it's little cycle of life, at the end it puts off these HORRENDOUS awful hard things that look like miniature goat skulls. The dang things will give a human bumblefoot in my opinion and they are awful hard to get rid of. It looks like soft fluffy stuff but step on it and it will make you a believer in a hurry

Also rocks and gravel. The birds jumping down from high places into gravel areas will bruise their feet after time.. Or I should say it can. Anything that breaks the skin of the foot can cause it because then it makes a place for bacteria to enter and infection to set in. In her case it was cholla cactus thorns. They are barbed and in humans usually have to be removed with pliers. I know because the one we had in the front yard shot me when I was pregnant and hubby had to hold me down to pull it out. Yes cholla cactus is known as jumping cactus because it kinda throws it's needles. I know scary huh. Well we don't have one no more. I had my baby and took a shovel to that thing with a vengeance!!!!

 

[ChooksChick]

I ordered the 5 gallon pack from Koi Acres for $56 shipped. It arrived in 3 days and was easy to split into two containers so I could share with RevolutionMama.

Here is a pic of her treating one of her Coronation Sussex roosters for a small cut he received from a rock in the plantings. Look at the dedication of that ChickenMama! He's such a nice guy he loves the attention!

The breakdown is 5 teaspoons per gallon, and it's easy to work with!

I look forward to using it on my boy, but won't get to it for a couple of days. I'll take before and after shots.

 

[cocosandy]

Why dont you operate?...it may be too late by now but if you soak it and cut it out under the running water, then inject half a cc of tylan daily into the foot or thigh, it may have a chance.
Once the bumblefoot goes beyond stage 2 it starts to go into the bone and its hard to get out....Topicals, in my experience, dont work...I am ordering this stuff too just to see if it works, but my best experiences have involved swift treatment (ie cutting it out and getting the bumble itself out) and using topicals and injectables ...Its a very hard thing to cure, and topicals alone dont work if you dont cut the thing out. Search this site for the bumblefoot operations, but the best way to do it is to lay the bird wrapped in a towel with its head covered, on the side of the sink so that you can put its feet in running water. use tweezers and an exacto knife...and cut around the edge of the callus and see if you can massage the bump real hard and then pop the thing out.

I dont know why the vet would refuse to operate but it may be too far gone already. Still, its worthwhile to at least pop the thing out. even if you cant do a full cleaning, it will at least hopefully get the plug and bumble out.

Unless this stuff is a miracle cure, I would strongly suggest soaking and then hollowing the thing out (it will bleed alot so do it under running water) Get out as much of the hard pus as possible and hopefully the hard bumble. Then soak with this stuff, and pack with neosporin...then inject the tylan into the thigh or into the foot. Inject the tylan for 7 days.
I also strongly suggest slathering the foot in Traumeel (get it on Amazon.com)...that is a great healing ointment and it will help the outside of the foot heal up quickly.
Keep it bandaged and dry until its closed. If you change bandages and see infection gathering, then clean it out as best as you can and repeat...use vet wrap and try to keep the feet dry.
But as you go along try to let the chicken be a chicken. It seems to me that they do better if they can hang out in the pen, even if the bandages get dirty and you have to change them more...I only change them if they get wet.

Vets are odd about this...and bumblefoot isn't that curable unless you catch it really early. Good luck!

 

[mdbokc]

OK, we have used the Tricide-Neo for a consistent week with distilled water (which we didn't use the first time and results were poor). The bumblefoot has shrunk from at least pea sized to less than the head of a pin (barely see it). So far, so good. Going to go another week. We are doing a 7 minute foot dip once a day. We rinse their feet before the dip, clean with a paper towel if necessary. Rinse again after the 7 minute dip. No wrap or bandages.

We mix a small batch of one half gallon and use it for one week as directed in the instructions. Then we'll mix another batch for the second week.

ETA...although we had improvement using the Nutribiotic Grapefruit Seed Extract and I think it would have eventually handled it, I moved that girl to the Tricide-Neo also. 1) to get full money's worth out of the batch product and 2) Tricide-Neo is working faster.

The P73 Oregano did not have any noticeable effect on the bumblefoot.

 

[Kazzandra]

Just to be absolutely clear, Tricide Neo is NOT some super antibiotic of doom. It is made of three well-known organic compounds that work well in conjunction-- kind of like triple antibiotic ointment. It should be absolutely fine to eat the eggs, etc. There's nothing systemic going on with food soaks.

Lookie here are the Wikipedia for all three ingredients:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tris
A buffering agent-- this is what you accidentally deactivate if you don't use distilled water. It's keeping the PH of the water at the right level for the EDTA to work, and helps the Neomycin as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edta
It's a chelating agent, meaning it removes the metals from the bacteria that they need to survive. This is what Epsom salt does for Staph infections, but epsom salt isn't quite as effective.
And finally, good ol' Neomycin, which is actually produced by bacteria to defend itself against other species of bacteria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neomycin

So you don't need to freak out over it as much as some posters suggest.

In addition, your arsenal should contain Preparation-H, but I just found there are some substantial differences in their formulas. I have been using the Aloe Vera Cream on my chickens, but I think you can use any. The important ingredient is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine
That's right-- Sudafed!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramoxine
Pain relief-- not toxic to chickens.

In the regular, instead of using glycerin and white petroleatum, they use mineral oil. And here was the puzzler for me: only the ointment contains shark liver oil, which definitely has beneficial qualities, but I question the decision to buy and use it, personally. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shark_liver_oil

I used Ichthammol for a long time, alternating it on days without soaks, and no doubt it helps and works along similar grounds. I think the Prep H is more quick-acting and effective, however.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthammol

Finally, I used triple-antibiotic cream, too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacitracin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymyxin_B
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neomycin

After my soaks, I would put a dab of both the Preparation-H and Triple Antibiotic, and then I would put on Nettie's shoes. I did the soaks right before they would go to bed (they are so calm and tranquil then) and I also knew that no one would be pulling on the shoes or bandages. I think the Trikcide-Neo water getting trapped in the shoes was a great thing, too, creating a damp environment that softened the callus but stopped bacteria growth.
After a few weeks of every other day treatments and shoe-wearing, I was able to just push out the core of the infection, which was mostly dead and black and shriveled. The hole was bigger than the infection by that time, see.

And these were super-advanced cases, for the most part. The oldest girl, the only chicken that I have ever taken in as an adult had a minor bumble between her toes since she arrived-- for two years that I never noticed, and she spread it during the winter when they were cooped up. I see it now in pictures of her from years gone by and laugh to myself.
She gave it the Brabanter, who had no resistance to Staph, and his feet are the ones pictured earlier, and that was after three months of antibiotics (systemic-- Penicillen, Terramycin, and finally, Tylan) and a few Tricide treatments. I first found out about bumblefoot when I put him down after petting him and he fell down! Four months later, it was still petrified and horrible, and then I found this thread. The third, a Marans, only had the beginnings of it, but it would have been bad without treatment.

I never isolated the birds from their flock-- I just kept an eye on the other's feet. But I think the main thing was that I had fixed the bad perch situation. Just a reminder to everyone-- ROUND PERCHES. If your perches are rectangular lumber pieces, this might be where your problem is coming from. Get rid of the cause, and you're half way done. Make sure you don't have scaly feet mites, either, because they make the PERFECT little holes for staph to get into. Again, the older chicken brought it to all of the rest of my chickens, and I finally got rid of it with Ivermectin treatments.

I keep Nettie's shoes on the chickens that were infected at all times because I understand that their skin is still very susceptible to reinfections from the environment after healing, which makes sense.

If you're vigilant and really want for your birds to get better, it can be done. Stick to it, and your birds will thank you.

Oh, and remember THIS is what you're fighting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staphylococcal_infection

Be aware that your chickens might be showing other signs-- mine were! My Brabanter also had a large carbuncle on his keel-- so look around on their bodies for these.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbuncles
And I also have a girl with stye in her eye (actually on her Meibomian gland), which is ALSO a staph infection. It might be a permanent cosmic deformity now, though the infection is gone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stye
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalazion

And some people might be able to manage the surgery-- good for them. But it is not the only way, and you risk reinfection and laming your chicken if you don't know what you're doing. Being that I've never done minor surgery before, I opted for the 'starve the infection' route. My vet wouldn't do the surgery-- said he was too far advanced, and toes would be lost, no doubt. He gave me Terramycin powder for the flock's water as a consolation, I'm sure.

I've definitely brushed up on my biology and chemistry so that I can take care of my chickens.