Was I bamboozled by a TS employee?

[Ridgerunner]

Bee, I know I'm not going to convince you of anything, we've had too many discussions on too many different topics for me to think anything else. I think we’ve pretty much respected one another and not gotten too personal. On a lot of stuff we agree.

But this is certainly one that I disagree with you about. To me it is a matter of ethics. There are a lot of people on here looking for help that have absolutely no experience with chickens. That’s why they are here, they are looking for help. They don’t understand the differences in how we keep them and what that implies. Some of them are going to be keeping a few chickens in small suburban back yards, often locked up in bare runs, no forage whatever. Some are going to be feeding them nothing but commercial feed falling very close in line with the tests we’ve been talking about. Several people reading these posts aren’t posting about their individual set-ups and management practices. They are reading to gain knowledge.

To me the scientific evidence is very clear, whether you want to believe it or not is up to you. If growing chicks eat nothing but Layer the calcium levels can and often does harm some of them. I cannot in clear conscience tell someone I don’t know how they are managing their chickens it doesn’t matter.

 

[Beekissed]

And I can agree to disagree with that. I don't find it ethical to just repeat the same stale information to people who are new at keeping chickens, so that they never learn anything on their own or challenge the accepted wisdom that science wants us to swallow. It creates lemmings who repeat the same mistakes over and over again, expecting different results each time. You'll find them most often in the emergency threads with posts starting with "HELP!".

They will continue to give antibiotics to their chickens~not having one shred of pharmaceutical or vet training~for every sniffle because ethical people on BYC told them to go buy it and give it to the flock in their water if they want to have healthy chickens....they don't know of a sure diagnosis, nor do they know any sure dosage as there is little information out there for such things, and they sure don't know anything about pathogens and antibiotics, but they will do it anyway.

They will continue to deworm on a schedule because the ethical people on BYC told them it's good flock management to do so, but they will in turn be breeding stronger worms that take even stronger chemicals to kill each time...all the while breeding chickens that are less parasite resistant.

They will also feed whatever the scientifically driven and ethical people tell them to feed, though there's really no basis in true situations for it at all as no one is actually paying for necropsies when their birds die, but just assuming it was the layer feed~IF they actually risk trying layer feed at all after following the more ethical posts on BYC. Which they rarely do because several ethical people will immediately respond to any such posts and put such a fear in them, guilting them into thinking they will kill their birds if they go against the majority opinion. And it's just not so...I've seen that it's just not so, so I can quite ethically and with a sound conscience say I don't find it to be true.

You see, just as it is with the varied experience levels and management practices on these forums, how one views what is ethical varies as well. Is it ethical to steer newbies down a path towards knowledge that is not tried but in a laboratory study on birds of differing genetics from the target? I don't find it to be so. You do and that's fine and each of us should be able to state that without getting ganged up on each time they do. If there is only one source of knowledge that is to be allowed on BYC and it's that stuff that the science some deem ethical and sound, then every single newbie will be following that same path....the path that commercial growers who also follow scientific studies follow, the path to genetically inferior, unhealthy flocks that tend to contract and spread disease. Nothing is truly learned if all learning is controlled by the so called ethical, scientific minded members of BYC...at that point it's just knowledge that is repeated by rote, not by experience.

 

[lazy gardener]

Devil's advocate here. I'm hearing a lot of pros for Multi-Flock to be fed to all birds, with OS on the side. Several years ago, I was being told on BYC that to give my chicks Multi-Flock till POL was a very bad thing to do b/c the extra protein brought them to sexual maturity before they had reached full skeletal and system growth, so that their future laying career could be problematic. Not hearing that so much any more. I'd love to see a survey: Rooster age in folks flocks compared to the flock owner's feeding practices. Who keeps their roos until they die of old age or illness? I'm guessing that many roos are culled prior to that, either by predators, or for the crock pot. I'd love to hear who has a roo over the age of 5, and what their feed regimen has been.

 

[Beekissed]

I've had a few I've kept to 5-6 and beyond and they get free range and layer here. Never had one just up and die for no reason...roosters are tough as cobs. I usually only cull my main rooster if they are shooting blanks(usually 5-6 before that starts showing up) or I've got a better rooster I'd like to try and that's just been recently as I'm trying to breed a standard WR flock. Used to I'd just keep a good rooster until he was old and no longer as fertile, though.

 

[junebuggena]

Do you think that maybe the decrease in fertility could have been a symptom of ingesting too much calcium over a long period of time?

 

[Beekissed]

Do you think that maybe the decrease in fertility could have been a symptom of ingesting too much calcium over a long period of time?

No, I think age of the bird contributes to the decrease in fertility..and that's male and female alike. Any male bird will start to decrease his fertility levels past the age of 5 than when he was a randy young cockerel...unless you've stumbled on some kind of fountain of youth in low calcium feed you'd like to tell us about that prevents a rooster from losing any fertility capacity as he ages? Still shooting 100% at the age of 5-6? Of course, there can't be any mitigating factors like too fluffy feathers or such....probably have to do a double blind study on it under controlled laboratory settings to determine all of that, wouldn't we?

This group are all 5 except the BA, which is 7, and all were fed layer ration all their lives...the 5 yr olds were even fed it as chicks. One of those WR hens was 6 when she gave me a start on my current line after being bred to a standard bred WR male. When I received that WR male I culled old Toby so I wouldn't have to see him dethroned and relegated to a pen....he was nearly 6 when I culled him, all organs very healthy and still managing to fertilize most of his flock's eggs but noticing a few misses here and there.

 

[lazy gardener]

Pretty much puts the Ca++ theory to rest by practical experience, doesn't it???

 

[Beekissed]

Not yet....still haven't heard results from other folks who are feeding all stock and the general fertility rates of their geriatric birds and without a scientific study done on both aspects in a controlled setting with a double blind study, I'm not sure anyone can conclude anything as real, can they? The birds I raise may just be the exception to the rule that layer rations kill roosters and birds that are fed layer as chicks, shortening their lives and rendering them unproductive, unhealthy and infertile.


It would be helpful to add that I usually only kill my hens when they start slacking off on regular laying cycles...with the WRs I can get 5-6 good years out of them before I decide that laying is too sporadic to let them stay in the flock. With BA birds it's much longer....I've had them go to 7 and headed towards 8 before they finally gave up on regular laying cycles. Same with the roosters....unless I get a better rooster hatched or the old guy can't fertilize the flock 100%y, he gets to stay here into old age.

Don't know if there are too many studies done out there on the fertility expectations of 5-6 yr old DP roosters but I'd admire to see them if they exist.

 

[FridayYet]

Proven theory? Maybe, and maybe not. Beekissed has a lovely setting, treats her chickens well, and they seem to have a wide and varied intake besides layer feed. So for her, feeding layer, which she also cuts with grain, probably doesn't make much of a difference.

My chicks start out on an organic, non-soy, non-medicated 20% chick starter, move on to an 18% grower, and pretty much stay there with oyster shell free choice on the side. I don't use antibiotics unless absolutely necessary, don't worm, and try to give green scraps and garden trimmings when I can since I can't free-range. My birds are healthy too, and my method seems to be working for me, and I'm not planning on switching to layer feed for my mixed-age flock. Does that prove my way is better? Nope. Just works for me.

Don't have any geriatric roosters since I've only lived here 2 years and where I lived chickens were illegal. (Only had a few bootleg hens, but they are almost 4 and seem to be doing well.) Both of my cockerels were born this year, and we'll see how they do in the future.

 

[FridayYet]

Not yet....still haven't heard results from other folks who are feeding all stock and the general fertility rates of their geriatric birds and without a scientific study done on both aspects in a controlled setting with a double blind study, I'm not sure anyone can conclude anything as real, can they? The birds I raise may just be the exception to the rule that layer rations kill roosters and birds that are fed layer as chicks, shortening their lives and rendering them unproductive, unhealthy and infertile.


It would be helpful to add that I usually only kill my hens when they start slacking off on regular laying cycles...with the WRs I can get 5-6 good years out of them before I decide that laying is too sporadic to let them stay in the flock. With BA birds it's much longer....I've had them go to 7 and headed towards 8 before they finally gave up on regular laying cycles. Same with the roosters....unless I get a better rooster hatched or the old guy can't fertilize the flock 100%y, he gets to stay here into old age.

Don't know if there are too many studies done out there on the fertility expectations of 5-6 yr old DP roosters but I'd admire to see them if they exist.

I don't think it's a rule, just a recommendation. But then again, I read the evidence and make my own conclusions. I tend to see many things in shades of gray instead of black and white. So if people ask me what food to feed young birds, I'm going to say starter/grower has worked for me. Why feed extra calcium to a bird that is not excreting it in eggshells? Plus, calcium is cheap and I'd rather buy a #50 bag and serve it on the side instead of paying a "feed price" for it.