What happens if you cross a White Rock with a Silver Penciled Rock

[Turkeytom25]

Hi guys, I am looking for a way to bring up size on my Silver Penciled Rocks. I have considered Dark Brahmas, but that would be crossing outside the breed. I think that the best option would be a good Columbian Rock, but I am looking for something that is a little more common. The Silver Penciled Rock seems to have a size problem which results in birds a couple pounds short of standard weight. I am thinking that a cross to one of the big White Rocks I have seem at the shows would be of help. So could the cross come out with anything that could be bred back to Silver Penciled Color Pattern? I attached a few pictures of my birds.

 

[Amer]

They are very beautiful. I think you best option is just breeding up from what you have. Size can be increased over generations. The color will be a nightmare to fix. White Rocks are recessive white, meaning they could hide anything but what I think is most likely beneath there is a barred black bird. The extended black gene and all it involves would be a hassle to remove, and you’d lose all the work that went into that beautiful double lacing. Sometimes people cross silver pencilled with partridge Rocks but only to improve partridge and usually not the other way around since mahogany, gold, and autosomal red can be difficult to remove from the males.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

I agree with Amer. Outcrossing for size is a terrible idea and will create far more problems for you. Just grow out as many birds as you can afford to and select rigorously for your largest stock, especially in hens. I've noticed size in males as they're growing out seems to be very dependent on their place in the pecking order sometimes (they don't get to eat as much, get run around more) so it can be easier to confidently select your biggest females.

You will see results and stay within your line without introducing myriad other issues from an outcross.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Outcrossing can bring in all sorts of problems- side springs on comb being a big one. That said, outcrossing is the only way to increase size in the Silver Penciled Rocks. The only parent flock of that variety I've seen to throw a large bird now and then is Hortsman. That line has cushion issues too so not an easy line to improve.

The best way to attempt an outcross for improvement would be to source some good Partridge Rock stock. Norman in Maryland has great birds. The caution of doing this is to not go all in. Try it as a side project to test how well the two lines niche.

Too bad you're not closer or I'd let you take some of my stock. I went down the route of improving size. Had some progress and some pitfalls.

 

[Turkeytom25]

What about a cross to a good Columbian Rock? Would that be of any help? I have heard about recessive white that hides other colors, which is why I figured it might be a good idea to ask before trying this cross. I did just get myself a pair from Norman Ennis, the funny thing is that they don't seem that much bigger. I will say they they seem to be more solidly built and have less feathers than the Horstman Rocks. Also the pullet does a better job of carrying the lacing down into the fluff which is nice.

 

[Turkeytom25]

I am trying to avoid any outcross that would introduce more of that Autosomal red into the SPPR. They already have enough trouble with that. A lot of my hens have a sort of smutty brown under color which is not great to look at. Preferably an outcross would not add to that problem but remove some of it. My cockerels have been pretty good with color so far, not much brassiness or red in the feathers. I will most likely buckle down and work with what I have for a few years before I try anything of this sort.

 

[Bigtom Turkey]

I would have suggested Dark Brahma but then you have to deal with feathered legs and the pea comb.

 

[Amer]

What about a cross to a good Columbian Rock? Would that be of any help? I have heard about recessive white that hides other colors, which is why I figured it might be a good idea to ask before trying this cross. I did just get myself a pair from Norman Ennis, the funny thing is that they don't seem that much bigger. I will say they they seem to be more solidly built and have less feathers than the Horstman Rocks. Also the pullet does a better job of carrying the lacing down into the fluff which is nice.

Columbian Rocks... that might help, though it will lose the pattern work. @Egghead_Jr

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

What about a cross to a good Columbian Rock? Would that be of any help? I have heard about recessive white that hides other colors, which is why I figured it might be a good idea to ask before trying this cross. I did just get myself a pair from Norman Ennis, the funny thing is that they don't seem that much bigger. I will say they they seem to be more solidly built and have less feathers than the Horstman Rocks. Also the pullet does a better job of carrying the lacing down into the fluff which is nice.

Do you have access to good columbian rocks? I know there's a couple of folks working on them but not many, and I don't know what sort of quality you'd be looking at.

I hear you on not wanting to cross to anything gold. Autosomal red leakage is aggravating.

My gut says it would take a long freaking time to get your lacing and patterning back crossing to Columbian because of the way the restrictors work on body pattern. If you do any outcrossing, though, definitely do like Egghead said and keep your pure stain going separately.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Wynnette did that Columbian cross using Scott's birds. I don't believe either of them are members here anymore, never did hear if she was able to pull the full pattern back after the cross.

I used Norman's Partridge Rocks for what amounted to a one time cross. Mink took out the last hen just before she went into the breeding pen the second year. No autosomal red was gained from that cross.