Bantam vs "failure to thrive"?

I bought several one-day-old Polish chicks about a week and a half ago. I was under the impression that they were all standard-sized, but could have been mistaken. Most of them are doing very well. They're growing quickly and already have quite a few real feathers.

Two of them are undersized and refuse to catch up:
One of them has chronic paste butt, and his poor butt is bare. None of the other chicks has this problem. I've been mixing yogurt and sand into his chick starter, and ACV in his water, for three days. I wipe his butt 2-3 times a day. It shows no signs of clearing up.
The other one just seems like an underachiever. He was looking quite bedraggled when the other chicks got bigger and started trampling him. Now that I have him in a separate brooder with Mr. Paste Butt, he seems to be doing much better. He just refuses to grow.
They are developing wing feathers just as fast as the other chicks, but their wings look proportionately larger.

Anyway, when will I know for sure whether I got a couple of bantam chicks? It's no big deal if they are, I just want to know whether there's something wrong with them. I can post a picture tomorrow comparing the two sizes if that would help.

okay... you might have a case of cocidiossis with "Mr. Paste Butt" (That was cute). It is really easy to cure. We fed our chickens medicated goat feed and the problem stoppped. they started dieing off one by one sadly before hand. If they were the same size as chicks they are all the same. Bantam chicks are much smaller in size. The chicks could be from different strains though, witch would make them different in size, color patterns, feet, crests, etc.

I would not recommend goatfeed... there is a specific medicated starter for poultry chicks to help deal with cocci issues and you should use that 9was your starter medicated?)
I would take an ample faecal sample to the vet for a faecal (this should not be expensive) ...
In general when you have an ill bird or one showing "failure to thrive" issues , you should separate them from the rest... not only will this give you an opportunity to observe the specific symptoms to that bird but will also allow it to eat and drink sufficiently as the other birds seem to instinctively know when a bird is ill or poorly and will often bully them away from feed and drink making the problems worse.
A supplement in such cases such as AviaCharge 2000 (you can purchase online from McMurry or Strombergs) as a general supportive measure (nutrition) is always a good first step .

I agree with Dlhunicorn on this one.

In the states, the 'medicated' feed you want will be a chick-starter or starter-grower for chickens (not goats) that contains Amprolium. It should not contain BMD (Bacitracin) as that's a ration for industrial chicken growing plants. BMD is an antibiotic. Amprolium is a coccidiostat.

Now, because it's a coccidiostat (designed not to sterlize the environment from cocci, but to help prevent cases of the actual illness of coccidiosis) it will not prevent coccidiosis if environmental conditions favor the illness. It's designed to be weak enough to still allow chicks to develop an immunity to low levels of cocci by being exposed to low levels. High levels of cocci overcome the medicine and then must be treated with "coccidiocides".

The same medicine, amprolium, is also used in one of the best coccidiocides - only in a much stronger dosage to treat illness, not help control the number of incidents.

Corid is the med in the states I'd buy. If you can't get it and need it now, try Sulmet. The difference is that Sulmet is a sulfur drug. It's both antibacterial (an 'antibiotic') as well as a coccidiocide. Because of that, it's more harsh on the babies. But not as harsh as coccidiosis! So in a pinch....

I find that in most cases, the potential for coccidiosis can be stopped by giving probiotics (the yogurt - given as dlhunicorn has mentioned) in combination with disinfecting the brooder, making sure all bedding is completely dry, cleaning and disinfecting the waterers and feeders, and removing droppings from feeders/waterers immediately when soiled and cleaning with hot soap and water. Then replacing.

I can't stress 'dryness' enough. While the bedding should not be dusty, it should be the most absorbant material you can use. Newspaper, while absorbant, still leaves droppings on top to be accessed by chickens. Sand, while dry, can still leave droppings up on top unless you constantly rake them out. Shredded newspaper, to me, is the same as regular newspaper - only fluffier, not any more absorbant. My choice is shavings. Others use hay (which again I feel is less absorbent and more prone to mildew because it doesn't dry as fast.)

In any case, dry dry dry and dry. Water spilling into the bedding or a warm brooder makes the perfect condition for coccidiosis to occur. So clean it up, and the underlayer if applicable, and try putting waterers at back-level to the chicks so that they don't walk through it (with the poop that inevitably is on their feet) and don't poop in it - as much. (Chicks are talented in finding ways to poop in it anyway!)

As for probiotics, if you can get them to eat it alone, that's best! Otherwise, sometimes I will mix it with water and then mix a little of that water with a tiny bit of crumbles, let sit 10 minutes to absorb, and feed that first thing in the morning when they're quite hungry. I make a very small amount - one that can be cleaned up within 10 minutes. i make sure every baby gets it. If some gets more than others, I put him aside so that others can get their share. At the end of 10 minutes, I remove that bowl, clean and dry, and replace their free-choice chick starter for the rest of the day and the rest of the week. Do NOT mix it with mash and leave for more than 10 minutes. And I'd agree to stop the sand at this point.

With my babies, I will often give them a prepared probiotic (Probios powder or an avian specific probiotic) on their second day of eating. Babies come without enough good bacteria in their gut. Mother Nature provides for that by giving chicks and amazing curiosity which often leads them to peck their mother's vent and droppings. That's how they naturally acquire both good and bad bacteria from their mom. Because their mom is healthy, the good outnumber the bad and colonize the gut faster and more thoroughly. Remember that otherwise their gut is pretty much free real estate! If the bad got to it first, they could just as easily take over. Because my babies aren't hen-raised, I give that insurance to my chicks that the good will outnumber the bad. I do probiotics up to weekly through the growth period, and then occassionally thereafter even to adults to re-innoculate their guts.

They will NOT grow dependent on probiotics for gut bacteria if you feed them. They will just benefit from them.

The bacteria help your bird actually absorb their food by finishing the digestion process on what the gizzard mechanically breaks down. They also help control pathogens by literal competition for that same 'real estate' of the gut!

So... when babies "might have' coccidiosis, I always start them on probiotics. If I see pasty-vent, I use probiotics daily until it either goes away, or until other symptoms present. If I see diarrhea in chicks (not just the occassional cecel chocolate-pudding droppings) I give probiotics first if the chicks are all active, eating, not sleeping too much. If the babies at all get lethargic, then I treat with Corid AND probiotics. I continue probiotics every other day after medication for 2 weeks. Then I go back to "occasionally", etc.

Keeping the environment very dry and clean, boosting natural gut bacteria with a probiotic (like lovely yogurt), and being very keen to watch droppings carefully daily has allowed me to have a flock without coccidiosis in nearly 10 years with many babies raised. I do have pasty vent babies come in (when I buy hatchery, shipped, or feed store stock) but this program always keeps them from going further than that.

It might work for you, too, along with dlh's wonderful advice.

As dlh mentioned, as well, be sure to carefully watch the babies (and I'll add feel their weight daily to every other day during brooding and growth). If you do that, you can usually see problems before they get too far. Just as you've noticed one of your babies tends towards pasty vent. Doing so will probably show you that the smaller babies might not be getting enough feed. I will sometimes take out the smaller babies and brood them all in a separate brooder. They often zoom up in size and readily catch up!

I hope everyone's information is helpful. Please do let us know how your babies do, won't you?

I also agree with the avi-charge.

p.s. If you do the fecal sample from the vet, ask for a "fecal egg count" and for them to check for the oocysts of coccidiosis. Remember to ask for both specifically (vets have a lot on their minds and will assume less). Looking at just the feces for worms is an undependable way to determine if your adults have worms as worms more often shed their eggs than themselves. And just note that finding cocci oocysts (their method of spread) isn't always reliable, unfortunately. But a "fecal egg count (adults) and fecal check for coccidiosis" is highly recommended if you REALLY want to know!

MidnightChickenLover - Thanks! That's exactly what I needed to know... and now that I think about it I realize what a dumb question it was, which explains why nobody else had asked it when I searched.

dlhunicorn - yes, the starter feed is medicated. He's more or less separated now; he's in with one other chick (the other undersized one), but the area is more than large enough for the two of them and they don't fight over food or water. The companionship seems to be benefiting both of them. I had noticed the bullying, which is why I put those two in their own area. I can quarantine the sick one if it's necessary, though.
Thanks for the no sand tip. I thought I saw someone on here recommend it as a cure for pasty butt, but now I can't find the post, so maybe I'm nuts. I have some adult-sized grit on hand, but it sounds like it won't help and isn't necessary? They are just getting the yogurt and chick starter. No free ranging yet.
"Mixed in" the yogurt was perhaps a bad phrase. I did stir it in, but only a little and it clumped up with the feed, so there was plenty of non-yogurt-tainted food available. (They specifically went for it, though - they seem to love it!)

Yes please keep us updated. The above advise from dlhunicorn & threehorses are right on. Follow their lead and you won't go wrong!
Good Luck!

threehorses - wow! Thank you!

The bedding in both brooders is very dry pine shavings. I will make sure it stays that way. And it sounds like I should start feeding yogurt to the non-symptomatic chicks as well.

I think I am going to medicate both of the undersized chicks. Today I noticed that the one who doesn't have paste butt seems to be having a lot of issues with coordination and strength. I would be surprised if he doesn't have it too. That is, of course, the one my boyfriend (not a chicken person) picked out and named - I'm never going to hear the end of it if he dies.

I swear animals do better when I ignore 'em...

Thanks to everyone for the advice and kind words! I really appreciate you all taking the time to answer my questions, especially since they are frequently asked on this forum.

Coordination could be a nutritional deficiency, too. Might be time to add some vitamins to the whole deal as well. In any case, since they're not doing so well, it could help. PolyViSol by Enfamil (get the non-iron formula - walmart sells it in their vitamin section) 2 drops in the beak daily for a week might help the lesser babies catch up on whatever they need.

Or again as dlhunicorn said, Aviacharge. Or another poultry-specific and balanced vitamin/mineral product.

Okay, it's past time for an update, so here goes:

I tracked down some Corid and a poultry-specific electrolyte/vitamin formula. The Corid was mixed in at 4cc/gal. According to some sources it should be ~10cc/gal, but others say this is the cattle dosage, and I didn't want to overdo it. Anyway, I mixed both into the undersized chicks' water and gave it to them for 5-6 days.

They both looked better almost immediately! After the treatment cycle was done, I put them back in with the rest of the chicks and they are holding their own. The size difference is MUCH less pronounced. The weak chick is 100% fine now. The one with more obvious symptoms still has a tiny bit of paste butt going, but it doesn't appear to be enough to cause blockage. I'm going to separate him and treat him again if it doesn't clear up in a few more days.

I read elsewhere on here that crested chicks are prone to vitamin deficiencies, so all of them are now getting the electrolyte/vitamin formula in their water.

Does anyone know the shelf life of Corid? I hate to waste the unused 11.86oz, and I'd like to keep it around for future chicks.

Many thanks to all of you for your help!

And just for the heck of it, here's a picture of the chicks at 20 days (neither of these were the sick ones)
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/fadetopurple/pets/IMG_2817.jpg

Quote:
For the pasty bottom, well for all of them, give them yogurt once weekly. Now that you've corrected the major issue, the yogurt's live bacteria (the same as in the chickens' digestive tracts) will keep things healthy.

And yes- crested chicks do seem to be more prone to deficiencies, particularly in flocks where stringent attention wasn't paid to making sure the breeders had extra rich nutrition. They start off a little behind, and they just get more behind. For that reason, on all the 'delicate' breeds I would use egg yolk on the first day of feeding, use a little bit of kelp (just a tiny tiny sprinkle) for the first week and weekly thereafter, and of course their good crumbles. The tiny babies also tend to have a harder time getting the eating concept. For those, in addition to some egg yolk, I dampened their first crumbles. That way they were easier to swallow, easier to pick up (they don't jet around the floor and out of their beaks), and just made it possible for the more delicate babies to actually get a little more feed than I found they did with a first feeding of dry crumbles.

For these kids, I wouldn't use vitamin water every day as I feel it encourages slime in the water, and slime encourages bacteria. I truly feel that giving vitamins on the feed is the better method, and there are some studies that insinuate the same - that vitamins given with food are better utilized (particularly the oil-type vitamins). I also don't like the degradation that takes place in light. So if I were supplementing, I would consider using a small bit of vitamin water in a quickly eaten damp mash once a week instead. Just make a tiny bit of fresh vitamin water and dampen crumbles with it, add yogurt to that, let it sit til it's damp - not wet - and give that as a treat. The feed really will take care of most of their nutrition so you don't have to supplement as often. If you add brewer's yeast to that, the live yeast will also help with the important B vitamins as bacteria make the vitamins inside the bird for their use. By the way, if you can budget it, Aviacharge 2000 has more than just vitamins and looks to be a very very good product.

Hope this helps! I don't know the shelf life of Corid, but I believe it can last a good two years kept in a dark cool place?

And those are some awesome looking kiddos you have there!! Thanks for sharing the pictures.