Cream Legbars

While blue, brown and white are all egg colors (along with their myriad mixtures), all eggs are either blue or white. The brown coloration is added on top of the blue or white base shell as one of the final steps during egg production. So blue or brown are not dominant or recessive to each other, they are either present or not present separately, not dependent on nor influencing each other. The amount of brown color you see is the biggest variable in brown and green eggs. Some birds lay a very pale tan egg, some a very dark brown. This is due to the amount of pigment added to the outside of the shell. In addition, hens will often lay a more pigmented egg at the beginning of their laying cycle, and the color will become lighter the more eggs the lay (this has to do with stored pigments and diet sources, another discussion completely).

http://www.mypetchicken.com/backyar...eggs-become-blue-instead-of-white-or-H45.aspx

http://www.mypetchicken.com/backyar...n-eggs-become-brown-instead-of-white-H44.aspx

dretd, it wasn't my wedding, it was my cousin's in Creede. Everything was lovely, except my cousin in law's mother had moved her horses out because of the wild fires earlier in the year, and there was some flooding on the way to the airport. Or so I am told, I held down the fort at home, but my mother went to represent this branch of the family and enjoyed herself tremendously, and was actually presented with a basket of blue eggs, being told I bet you haven't seen these before, to which my mother replied,... actually, I have, (I burn my mothers ears off about the CBL several times a week, lol)

One thing I have liked about most livestock registries as opposed to dog registries, is the potential for upgrading to increase genetic diversity. The AKC fought for 40 years to not include LUA dalmatians which were created by ONE cross to a pointer, and then back crossing to pure dalmatians to alleviate a genetic problem that had 100% homogeneous saturation in the breed.
But I can take a scrub cow, AI her to a pure bull, breed her heifer to a pure bull, breed HER heifer to a pure bull, and if the result points out like a pure, than it can be registered as a pure..
I am not comparing the breeding of chickens as within a mammal registry, though. I am just looking at genetics, and genetics are genetics, be it mammals, reptiles, birds or fish. Or for that matter plants.
Most of the forums I am a member of are international, I have long made it a habit to check location when reading forums, so I am quite sure that the olive egg I saw mentioned was in the US, though it may be more that I looked at the color of the egg and determined it to be olive via my own perception thereof, and not that the poster of the egg said hey, look at my olive colored egg. But because we know how olive is produced and the production of green eggs in the CLB is evidence of the genetics that produce brown eggs, so olive possible without careful selection of breeders.

I do not feel there is a wall that is going to be hit. What you're saying is something I am very familiar with. When you "scatter breed" dogs (outcross them within the same breed), you have a highly variable expression of the different traits the different lines are known for. If you have a line of yorkies known for ear set, and another known for coat quality, you're not going to get the perfect combination of ear and coat by breeding them together. But by working the lines, you'll get that combination, usually via line breeding.
The same thing is happening here, and that is what the judge is referring to. As I have said, it's something that I am very familiar with.
However, the genes are NOT gone. They are there, and if breeding towards the SOP with birds that have the correct genetic potential, you're going to get there eventually. The feather pattern is there, the color is there, the comb is there, the egg color is there. It's just about putting them together in the right combination after having the different genetics jumbled up together.
I do not believe that you have only what you have and you cannot better what you have. That is the point of breeding to the standard, this is why show people speak of "improving" the breed. And I understand that things like this can take a multi years long view, because it's not going to happen in the first generation, the second, or even third sometimes. Sometimes it may take 4, 5 or 6 generations to improve upon a thing, or correct a problem (undershot mouths in the mini rottie, for example). But were it not possible to get from point A to point Q (not a typo, there is not going to be a point Z, the absolute perfect example of the standard) in a breed, then all we would have would be a bunch of mongrel birds, expressing various genetic combinations.
No, we do not have genetic tests for birds like we do for dogs. I can't sent a sample to VetGen and determine if I have barred, cuckoo, or whatever you in recessive. I can't test to see if a bird is carrying cream or recessive white or both. I can test breed, and improve what I have. It may take a while, BUT, it WILL come back.
Again, the genes are NOT gone, they are NOT missing. They are there, and breeders are like archaeologists bringing those genes back to light when they have been lost through heterogenization (if that is not a word, it is now, lol)
Though the GFF birds come from different sources, BECAUSE they have been bred to the same phenotype (which CAN, though not always mean the same genotype), and BECAUSE they all carry the genetics of the original CLBs in some form or another, they carry the same or similar genes. The combination might be a bit muddled and jumbled, but they're there, and it's up to the breeders to bring them out.
Because we do not have genetic tests we can use, observation and selection are the tools we have... After all, do not the CLB breeders in the UK buy birds from each other? Do they also not outcross their lines, and then select back? Is that not what we are going to have to do here, especially with the limits we have? In fact, could not the lack of enormous genetic diversity (three, soon to be four lines), actually help to increase homogenization? In fact, could the smaller number of birds available to us here makes the likelihood of unknown recessives being brought to light much sooner due to the increased chance of homogenization within certain alleles.

And yes, it may be hubris for me to say "we" when it's not a we, it's more a you guys, since I don't have these birds yet, but I have a passion for them that includes me in with you all (even if it is all in my mind) though you're the ones doing the work, lol.

1muttsfan: I used co dominant, because I was muzzy headed when writing, but I knew something wasn't right with the dominant/recessive description with blue/brown/white, which is why I started calling it brown modifier, it just made better sense to me. I knew on some level I was wrong about saying co-dominant, but at 3:30 am, I was NOT operating at full speed, lol.
I still have some really interesting thoughts about brown, but since I am not concentrating on brown layers at this time, they're kind of on the back burner about the variable expression of the gene, are there multiple brown modifier genes and so on.
More research to do at a later date, YAY !! (That was actually real enthusiasm, I LIKE that kind of thing, lolol).

Welcome LaBella and all the other new folks I may have missed!

Been hectic here and chickens are doing well. It looks like the 'blue band' chick is going to be my breeder cockerel, lost 'red band' to a raccoon. But that's okay - blue band has been my top pick from the beginning. Finally named him...Heathcliff. Not showing any signs of chestnut yet at 10 weeks (AR autosomal red) and he has a crest! Nice wide and solid leg set too. Can't wait until he's old enough to breed.

For a recap ---- at 5 days.




a little older at 6 weeks



And now, at 10 weeks

awww the cutie has a name!!! Wuthering Heights, hu-uh? lol.
Sorry about the loss of Red Band. It could be worse, you were leaning towards Heathcliff anyway, what if he had been snatched?

Laingcroft said:

Welcome LaBella and all the other new folks I may have missed! Been hectic here and chickens are doing well. It looks like the 'blue band' chick is going to be my breeder cockerel, lost 'red band' to a raccoon. But that's okay - blue band has been my top pick from the beginning. Finally named him...Heathcliff. Not showing any signs of chestnut yet at 10 weeks (AR autosomal red) and he has a crest! Nice wide and solid leg set too. Can't wait until he's old enough to breed. . . . . And now, at 10 weeks

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Such a big little guy -- he's adorable!

I am getting more and more enthused about this breed! I would love to get into breeding them, but that takes a rooster and I live in the city. The different "rules" or accepted practices in poultry breeding seem like good sense - I love that you don't have closed studbooks. But, I just have to figure out a way to have a city roo without tormenting the neighbors.

Aloha,

If the eggs are brown or even olive, it's a DQ. What is this "the only two known brown egg laying Cream Legbars"? Ridiculous. They are DQs.

Do not breed them, do not collect $200 when you pass GO.

Also, If a chick is not clearly a male or female at birth, it should not be breeded. There are enough correct CLs around that we do not need to breed wrong stuff. Even I with limited access to CLs do not want to breed incorrect birds.

Projects are projects. But keep the CLs pure., and breed out the bad stuff.

Sorry for ranting a bit.

kden, Puhi

I exchanged emails with GFF on the brown egg story.....they never had or sold any Legbars that laid a brown egg nor has anyone contacted them about getting aq brown laying Legbar from them directly.

If I had gotten a hen (that was not from GFF) and from a breeder who claims he/she got the parents/grandparents from GFF , and she laid brown eggs, then a *wandering roo" must have visiting. Or maybe they inbred the lines perhaps too heavily?

I would take the "brown laying hen" and put her in my layer eggs for sale flock. If she had siblings, I would see about their eggs as well.

Whoops said:

I am getting more and more enthused about this breed!  I would love to get into breeding them, but that takes a rooster and I live in the city.  The different "rules" or accepted practices in poultry breeding seem like good sense - I love that you don't have closed studbooks.   But, I just have to figure out a way to have a city roo without tormenting the neighbors. 

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If there were CL breeders nearer to me, I'd go with A.I. In a heartbeat.

bowen012 said:

Buying a pair of these to add to my flock. No real lofty aspirations, but even as pet quality I'd like to breed for genetics as much as possible. I know virtually zero about this breed so tossing some photos in here of potential birds that I'll hatch a few out of next spring. Of the birds pictured below, which (if any) would you recommend for my hobby flock?


Cockerel 1 (4 months) or Cockerel 2 (3 months)


Pullet 1 (4 months) or Pullet 2 (3 Months)

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I can't tell much from these photos, except that pullet 1 is definitely gold hackled and pullet 2 is probably gold hackled. If I had to pick one I would say number 1 because she has a better crest. Can you get a whole body shot of cockerel 1 to compare better with the other boy? Whole body shot of pullet 2 would help, too.

Laingcroft said:

Welcome LaBella and all the other new folks I may have missed!

Been hectic here and chickens are doing well. It looks like the 'blue band' chick is going to be my breeder cockerel, lost 'red band' to a raccoon. But that's okay - blue band has been my top pick from the beginning. Finally named him...Heathcliff. Not showing any signs of chestnut yet at 10 weeks (AR autosomal red) and he has a crest! Nice wide and solid leg set too. Can't wait until he's old enough to breed.

And now, at 10 weeks

Click to expand...

What a handsome boy- thanks for the photo progression! I know it helps me a lot! I would have guessed he would have more red at this age given the tint to his down.

Whoops said:

I am getting more and more enthused about this breed! I would love to get into breeding them, but that takes a rooster and I live in the city. The different "rules" or accepted practices in poultry breeding seem like good sense - I love that you don't have closed studbooks. But, I just have to figure out a way to have a city roo without tormenting the neighbors.

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There is a de-crowing surgery, and I've also heard of homemade collars that prevent their throats from expanding when they crow, making their crow more muted. Not sure if either of those are an option for you, but you can research them!