Cream Legbars

[ChicKat]

Hi LaBella,

Thanks for he good insights, and thanks too, for the reading of all the copious material in the various threads collected for Cream Legbars.

if I had a CL that laid a brown egg, I would exclude it from my breeding pen. Just as I would exclude something like sidesprigs or red earlobes.

I clearly see the point you are expressing, and your did an excellent job. My question would be, why would the USA expand the SOP to include olive eggs? By nature of eggs, it seems to me, That if an olive egg were broken open, the inside of the shell would be blue. An olive egg would indicate some other bloodlines in the chicken, IMO.

The original SOP by Punnett included ONLY blue eggs, no green, no olive as of 1957. Although my introduction is a bit tongue-in-cheek, and the original SOP is available on the internet - this link is here for easy access: https://sites.google.com/site/creamlegbarsatdiamondk/the-mysterious-cream-legbar When I break open one of my eggs, the inside of the shell is identical to the outside of the shell. Near the color of OAC179, I think. It could be that green/blue is precieved differently by different eyes and nomenclature is inexact at best. (e.g. Silver chickens, Gold chickens etc - )

Perhaps when the UK SOP was revised to include things that differ from Punnett's original, they were dealing with the CL nearly disappearing and had included other bloodlines...and then the 'price to pay' was olive eggs. IF there are so few brown layers, then perhaps people with light brown laying hens could exclude those hens from their breeding pens - and definitely over the next 4 3/4 years as the USA works toward APA acceptance of the breed, there won't be any brown layers and there won't be olive layers in the USA. IMO it would be better for the breed to follow this path. What do you think, taking the long (3-4years in the future) view?

 

[LaBella]

Hi LaBella,

Thanks for he good insights, and thanks too, for the reading of all the copious material in the various threads collected for Cream Legbars.

if I had a CL that laid a brown egg, I would exclude it from my breeding pen. Just as I would exclude something like sidesprigs or red earlobes.

I clearly see the point you are expressing, and your did an excellent job. My question would be, why would the USA expand the SOP to include olive eggs? By nature of eggs, it seems to me, That if an olive egg were broken open, the inside of the shell would be blue. An olive egg would indicate some other bloodlines in the chicken, IMO.

The original SOP by Punnett included ONLY blue eggs, no green, no olive as of 1957. Although my introduction is a bit tongue-in-cheek, and the original SOP is available on the internet - this link is here for easy access: https://sites.google.com/site/creamlegbarsatdiamondk/the-mysterious-cream-legbar When I break open one of my eggs, the inside of the shell is identical to the outside of the shell. Near the color of OAC179, I think. It could be that green/blue is precieved differently by different eyes and nomenclature is inexact at best. (e.g. Silver chickens, Gold chickens etc - )

Perhaps when the UK SOP was revised to include things that differ from Punnett's original, they were dealing with the CL nearly disappearing and had included other bloodlines...and then the 'price to pay' was olive eggs. IF there are so few brown layers, then perhaps people with light brown laying hens could exclude those hens from their breeding pens - and definitely over the next 4 3/4 years as the USA works toward APA acceptance of the breed, there won't be any brown layers and there won't be olive layers in the USA. IMO it would be better for the breed to follow this path. What do you think, taking the long (3-4years in the future) view?

Well, I expect that when I finally am able to have my cream legbars, instead of drooling over everyone else's, the issue of olive eggs here or not would be resolved, and more then likely the egg color will be more stabilized to blue, and away from mint green green or olive, and especially from brown, lol.

Between mini rottie herding, rescuing my misplaced mother from the airport after her vacation to my cousins wedding (and if there is anyone on this thread that just had a wedding in Colorado, inbox me, we're kin now, lol), and various other household and dutiful daughter things, I had the same thought...
Punnett didn't describe green or olive eggs, you're right. I am reminded VERY early in the main LegBar thread, before there was a working version of an APA acceptable SOP, in fact, none for the US bred version, except for the British SOP, that someone stated something to the effect that they would use Punnett description as it was written by the creator of the breed. and I thought that was a good idea, as who better would know what the breed should be?.
So why then the inclusion of the green and olive color in the British SOP? I can surmise that in the rebuilding of the breed, there was an addition of different bloods either purposefully to increase genetic diversity, or through accidental crossbreeding that the extra colors became more common and so added to the British SOP, since it was there already in their lines, which is the same thought you had as well. A good example of fitting the SOP to the birds, instead of making the birds fit the SOP.

Please be assured, I am not saying the US SOP should be expanded to include olive. In fact, the blue eggs is the first thing that caught my eye, and as has been said by wiser than myself (perhaps even you) egg color and breed type should be the two things that should be priorities in the establishment of the breed here.
What I am saying is that there is some kind of brown modifier in the breed as whole already, as evidenced by the green and olive eggs. And that because we know that the breed is allowed green and olive eggs in the UK (even if Mr. Punnett would not approve), that it would not be safe to think that we do not have the potential of olive eggers in the breed, especially since we know there are two hens that laid light brown eggs right here. If those hens were indeed straight from GF, and with the little I know about egg color genetics, (just enough to get myself in trouble, not enough to get myself out of it, lol), even if we do not have olive here, we have the potential here in the birds we have here, and so it's something to be aware of, but I still can't call them defective. Out of standard, pet quality, heck, table quality, but defective to me is something like a cross beak, a malformation, not something like the wrong color egg (and yes, I know it's just semantics, lol). And it would be terribly easy for olive to get in the lines especially if the male carries that gene, and it stays hidden for a bit, then the right gene combination allows it to show through, just as happened with the recessive white that surprised everyone.

Taking the long view, (easy for me, as a dog breeder, I often planned breeding 5-6 years in advance with dogs not yet even born, lol)... If a bird is over all the right type and color, but lays - or is hatched from or produces hens which lay - the wrong color egg, say green.. I would not exclude them from breeding. The gene pool we have here is too small, and we don't know the source of these birds, and we don't know the genetic diversity of the birds that were brought over here by GF.
What I would do is be very careful of that birds offspring. If it's a male from a green/olive layer, segregation and breeding to a small flock of correct colored layers. Get a couple clutches off him, process the males, segregate the females and when they start laying, you have a 50% chance of olive/green layers, and 50% chance of blue. Keep the blues, eat the greens, You have preserved genetic diversity at the same time preserving type and egg color. If it's a female, segregate and breed to a male hatched from the right color egg. process the cockerels, and raise the females. Again, 50% chance of the right color layers. In each case, the wrong colored layers could even be taken another generation further by again breeding to the right colored layers, and processing the ones that do not produce the right color when they start laying.
This would be perfect for someone like me, with more than a little OCD when it comes to keeping meticulous records, but perhaps too much for the average person because of the time, space, and resources doing something like that would involve. The saddest thing is I can't get in on the fun for another few years, as that is the exact kind of thing I was known for in my dog and betta fish breeding days (I had multi generation "bettagrees" for my fish, lol). In fact, by the time I buy my first cream legbars, the breed will be accepted, or be close to being accepted by the APA. *insert sad and pouty face here*

Which brings me to another thought, which I have not seen expressed here, but is probably somewhere else on this site, (I have barely scratched the surface of everything backyardchickens has to offer). It seems to me that brown is not recessive to blue as commonly stated in various places around the net, that instead it's a co dominant gene, which is why blue and brown can be expressed at the same time in the form of green and olive eggs. Once the brown modifier has been bred out, even if the bird has brown layers in it's ancestry, there should be little chance of it showing up again, especially if it is a dominant gene, in which case either it's there or it's not there. If it is as simple as not breeding olive and green eggers, than it's just as easy to breed them for yourself, and keep the pullets that lay the right color eggs.
Which then leads to another thought... were there not a few people who had hens that laid blue, then started laying green or mint green? And were there not a few that had green/mint green layers that later laid blue? This makes me think of a modifier gene with variable expression. Or perhaps there is something physiological at work here, though I can;t think of what would cause a color change like that, other than perhaps diet or stressers.
It's 3:30 am after a long and full day, and I am afraid I am starting to talk myself in circles. I hope what I have written is concise and easy to understand. I have many different thoughts rolling through the sometimes empty space between my ears (usually empty around 3:30 in the morning after a long and full day), and I'm not sure I have expressed them the way I wanted.

 

[ChicKat]

LaBella,

You are right on all counts. --

Here's what I think of at 3AM (ready?) ---> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Your deductive reasoning - or thinking-out-loud probably nailed it regarding at least some parts of egg coloration. I'm thinking that because increases in carotinoids made the eggs of certain seabirds bluer from one egg to the next - (Research - link is in the Cream Legbar Club's 'Clubhouse' storage, or PM me if you need a link) that DIET does play a big part of the coloration of CL eggs.

We think we know everything about everything about this chicken... but secretly - I think there is still a LOT to learn. I'm sending you a PM...

So on the theory that my CL chook needs more carotinoids, I am trying to supplement her diet.. Seems when I tried it before -- there was an increase in intensity of egg coloration. But sometimes you see just what you are looking for and it was slight...but it wasn't a long or highly scientific experiment. I get frustrated by the feeds available at feed stores around me, and I never know how old the feed is. Sometimes my chickens turn their little beaks in the air and ask me where their real food is and why did I put junk in their feed-dish. Or maybe they are just too spoiled.

Now that we have had some rain and some grass is growing, my CL scarfs grass - they all do - but she really chomps down - (Or maybe I just spend more time and attention watching Cream Legbar?)

ETA - exactly as you surmised about the brown appearing in later generations in the genetics... just like the white chicks... is probably why there have been a couple of brown egg layers.

Regarding 'line breeding' or 'in breeding' - or small gene pool. -- somewhere I read that chickens can 'in breed' for 17 generations before any real damage occurs. (I don't think I am going to try that just to see...but it is an interesting insight on chickens' genetics)

 

[ChicKat]

My girls appear to have stopped laying. They quit this time last year too. Then started again in January. Of my 2 older hens, One has recovered from her molt and another is molting now. My younger hens who are approaching their first birthday are not molting. I have a newer pullet who should be approaching POL. I wonder if she will start laying or wait till next spring.

Me too.... Not one egg lately from any of them. However, mine are so molty - that it looks like a feather-pillow fight where the pillow broke open. Piles of feathers. The CL that had just one remaining tail-feather has lost it -- and now she is like an Araucana.....

I pick them up and feathers fall, and it must hurt too. I see quills coming in -- My EE is molting again - and I could swear that she molted in the spring. I've heard that stress causes molt....and I know that the heat was tremendously stressful. (It was stressful to ME -- and I could even take some breaks and get into A/c).

I searched for that "Feather Fixer" by Nutrina advertised here on BYC (upper right of the banner page) and my closest feed store said they would order it for me, but the soonest it could be obtained was November. PUH-Leeeeze - I hope that by November they are done with their molt. -- I'll be on the road for a few hours the next couple days...maybe I can stop by every feed store I pass --- Meanwhile - just trying to boost their protein.

So maybe that's it for eggs for 2013? - -hmmmm I need to go have a talk with them. At least they will be SO beautiful when they get new feathers....

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Got a shell-less egg in the CL pen yesterday- hoping that means I have a pullet trying to lay!

Curtis it would be the pullet from your eggs. I noticed day before yesterday she is looking red in the face so I think it's her! How many do you have of mine that are the same age (from that particular egg swap)? Are they laying yet?

 

[GaryDean26]

I got 6 eggs yesterday from 10 hens. I up'd the protien from 16% to 18% a few weeks ago to help with molting. It has also cooled down significantly in the past few weeks. I am not sure what the contributing factor is, but after a very hot, low production August and beginning of September they are picking the egg production pace again. I don't know how long it will last, but am hoping for another 3 - 4 weeks of steady production so I can set some more CLB eggs.

 

[GaryDean26]

Got a shell-less egg in the CL pen yesterday- hoping that means I have a pullet trying to lay!

Curtis it would be the pullet from your eggs. I noticed day before yesterday she is looking red in the face so I think it's her! How many do you have of mine that are the same age (from that particular egg swap)? Are they laying yet?

We had 4 pullets hatch in our group and a man in Edmond, OK was gifted two eggs from your flock too.

The man in Edmond ended up with 6 pullets from 18 of our eggs and 2 of yours. He said one egg from your flock hatched (hopefull a solid built, cream, crested, straight combed, cockerel that he will select for breeding).

His pullets started laying the 8th of September. We sold one our the pullets with the best cockerel to TherryChicken who already has a pair of hens that needed a mate. Of the three that we have left one started laying on the 21st of September and we have got three eggs from her. The colore is really good on the eggs. I was out of town and didn't get the first egg on the scale, but the 2nd one was 46 grams which is quite big for a pullet egg.

 

[HaplessRunner]

My pullet eggs have been running from 38-42 grams. They have ramped up from the 1.2 ounces to the 1.4-15. ounce range. I have tested for fertility and every egg has been fertile. I am now doing a test hatch with 5 of my pullet eggs and nine eggs I got at the Gilmanor Swap last weekend. This will be the first hatching of my breeding stock.

LOL - there are also some CL cross project eggs & SFH in the incubator as well. So with any luck, I hope to be chasing chicks through the fall. I really want to see how my stock turn out.

 

[bowen012]

Buying a pair of these to add to my flock. No real lofty aspirations, but even as pet quality I'd like to breed for genetics as much as possible. I know virtually zero about this breed so tossing some photos in here of potential birds that I'll hatch a few out of next spring. Of the birds pictured below, which (if any) would you recommend for my hobby flock?


Cockerel 1 (4 months) or Cockerel 2 (3 months)


Pullet 1 (4 months) or Pullet 2 (3 Months)

 

[dretd]

Well, I expect that when I finally am able to have my cream legbars, instead of drooling over everyone else's, the issue of olive eggs here or not would be resolved, and more then likely the egg color will be more stabilized to blue, and away from mint green green or olive, and especially from brown, lol...

Between mini rottie herding, rescuing my misplaced mother from the airport after her vacation to my cousins wedding (and if there is anyone on this thread that just had a wedding in Colorado, inbox me, we're kin now, lol), and various other household and dutiful daughter things, I had the same thought...
Punnett didn't describe green or olive eggs, you're right. I am reminded VERY early in the main LegBar thread, before there was a working version of an APA acceptable SOP, in fact, none for the US bred version, except for the British SOP, that someone stated something to the effect that they would use Punnett description as it was written by the creator of the breed. and I thought that was a good idea, as who better would know what the breed should be?...

Hi LaBella! I sure hope your wedding wasn't one of the ones that had been scheduled in Estes Park... Congratulations!
I am excited about your interest in Cream Legbars, I love your enthusiasm. It sounds like when you finally get to the point of having your own flock, you will be on top of everything and will be able to focus in right away since you have done so much homework.

It might be helpful for you to think about breeding chickens a bit differently than breeding mammals. There are known pedigrees that go way back for many domestic mammal breeds and studbooks that have been closed for quite some time. It's about the genetics. With chickens, it's really more about the appearance of the bird. If it (more or less) meets the breed standard it will be a Cream Legbar. If it does not, then it is not. It is accepted practice to infuse genetics from another variety into a breed to increase vigor or enhance color (or whatever the goal), but with few exceptions with mammal pedigrees, this will forever disqualify the progeny from inclusion in that breed.

You had mentioned that Olive eggs are ok in Britain and that allowance has been removed from the US, yet you know you have seen that referenced in the boards here somewhere. I would suggest two thoughts about this. Do remember that there are BYCers actively posting from all over the world including South America, Australia and England (and Europe) as well as the US. Frequently they do not list their location, so if you see a post about olive eggs from Cream Legbars do realize they are likely located in England. Also remember that color descriptions will vary by where you live and also by your eye and how you perceive color. One man's blue may be another man's green. The olive description may be a much lighter hue in the UK than it is over here.

Since you like to read and put together puzzles, here are two links for you to read through.

The first excerpt from a post is by a very good APA judge, Fowlman1. He has a huge amount of knowledge to share https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...oup-standard-of-perfection/1460#post_11763266 :
"I think you folks are doing a great job and you have time to breed and observe these birds yourself here in the US with the genetics that are here now. there is no assurance that you have the exact genetic makeup of the birds from Britain. The wall people don't know exists, is the wall that is the genetic makeup of the birds you have. Genetics are fine, but if you haven't noticed, geneticists don't always agree. I suspect the reason is that they don't really know what the birds they are working with are really carrying. There is no way to look at a chicken and know exactly what genetic makeup it has. Many things are running in the background and may not show up for some time."

And here is another document posted by GaryDean26. This is a really good document to read over and if you go to page 26, there is some brilliant information about genetics and infusing outside lines to increase vigor of a stable flock: https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/713115/cream-legbar-working-group-standard-of-perfection/1570:
"The link below is to a 1944 publication titled Mating and Breed of Poultry. On page 20 and 21 is describes cockerels with low vigor that should be avoided as breeders. http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-dx?c=chla;cc=chla;idno=3133307;node=3133307%3A5;frm=frameset;view=image;seq=46;page=root;size=s "

"It must be kept in mind in making such a step that such out breeding has a tendency to destroy the uniformity of the flock in some respects and may have the exact effect, although to a lesser degree, that would follow crossing with a different variety or breed. "

So basically what I think is happening in the US with respect to Cream Legbars is that GFF has imported 3 (soon to be 4) lines of Cream Legbars from England. Each flock in England was likely stable with regard to genetics and bred more or less true. As soon as you start to combine the separate lines together, the genes are mixed and color enhancers and suppressors that were held in check in each separate flock are now recombined and jumbled together leading to the uniformity of the new flock being destroyed. On a large scale all of these flocks are getting intermixed when a few chicks from each line are getting sold off to new homes and then that new breeder is faced with the challenge of sorting out the uncovered genetics when the chickens are bred.

I think it is smart of us to reflect upon the two statement above. The experienced show judge is telling us we are going to hit a wall that we don't know is there and it's because of the underlying unknown genetics. The other expert tells us that when you mix two separate populations that individually look uniform and are of correct type, there all sorts of hidden genetics will be revealed when they are combined and there will be a period of time where you have to breed the results back to a stable uniform flock.

I think that part of the discourse that is happening where new breeders are perhaps frustrated and a little confused about about their flock when they uncover problems and see a lack of uniformity in the offspring. If we just accept that these sort of problems where numerous off-type or off-color birds show up when establishing a flock through combining several different flocks, then we wouldn't fret as much. This is to be expected. I think that this is all part of the challenge and fun of the breed, actually.