I know of at least another single comb breed with a crest and there is no such a thing as crele legbar, crele leghorn yes, but no crele legbar, gold legbar should look like a crele leghorn, at least in color
Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection
- Thread starter redchicken9
- Start date
So, I guess my point is if judges refuse to judge new breeds by their breed standard, it is going to be a long hard pull for the new breed to get recognised. Am I thinking right?
The judge was very straight foreword. He is supportive of new breeds being accepted by APA and will be working with the Club later this year to do a CLB only informal type evaluation. He does not however follow all the debates on the SOP and the Club's doings. The original variety in the UK was the Gold Legbar which is non-crested, so if you were reading the PCGB standards book I assume that you would see the type listed as non-crested (I don't have a PCGB standards book so others can correct me).
I was not muffed in the least by having my Cream Crested Legbars be beat out by non-crested Gold Legbars. The show is normally a way for me to get feed back on areas my flock need to be improved and to learn how I can better them, but yesterday was just a learning experience in what some of the things the CLB breeders will need to do get the breed recognized. 1) is distinguish it from a Crele Leghorn. This can be done by breeding to the Cream Color standard and breeding crested birds. 2) show often and in good numbers so that we can let the Judges know what the breed is and talk to them to let them know what it should be.
Clarification: -Crele Leghorn-
Last edited:
Why is it, that I find this very confusing?
- Does this mean that he read the Brit standard instead of the one that you sent him?
- Does this mean that the USA is supposed to produce the three Legbar varieties Gold, Silver, and Cream? -
- Did his comment that there are 'no single combed - and crested birds' - apply to only the birds in the USA SOP --? Obviously the reality must have been that there were single-combed and crested birds in the exhibition cage right there, so it must have been an SOP reference.
- Does the name need to be changed back to 'Crested Cream Legbar'?
Do we need to make a listing of all the crested and single combed birds--- ??
Folks, isn't the Sumtaler single combed? And it has that puffy crest. Or do we go back to 'it isn't a breed if it isn't listed in the APA standard?'
Happy St.Patrick's Day everyone!
Never-the-less, congratulations to April Howington on her wins, but are you saying that she entered birds without crests?
To my mind what many are calling 'gold birds' are not truly gold birds -- (sorry light people you haven't convinced me yet that some of the birds you are calling gold are truly gold--) So that may be a point of contention for some time to come -- but after attending a genetics seminar with Grant Brereton - I realize how totally genetically ignorant we all are...and what a huge combination of genes is lurking in all our Cream Legbars both here in the USA and most likely also in the UK.
Why is it, that I find this very confusing?
He has both and has read both.
- Does this mean that he read the Brit standard instead of the one that you sent him?
- Does this mean that the USA is supposed to produce the three Legbar varieties Gold, Silver, and Cream? -
- No, just that we have to be clear what direction the breeders are working in and if people want to work on non cream varieties they need to understand that they will have to follow the same type standard as the Cream Variety. (example- all must have crests)
- Did his comment that there are 'no single combed - and crested birds' - apply to only the birds in the USA SOP --? Obviously the reality must have been that there were single-combed and crested birds in the exhibition cage right there, so it must have been an SOP reference.
- I think this is like saying that a White egg breed can't have red lobes or a brown egg breed can't have white lobes. You obviously can, but it breaks with traditions.
- Does the name need to be changed back to 'Crested Cream Legbar'? Yes, that was my knee jerk reaction, change the name to make things clear, but in the long haul I really don't think that changing the name is necessary. Still uncertain on this...
Do we need to make a listing of all the crested and single combed birds--- ?? That would be interesting. Do you know of any?
Folks, isn't the Sumtaler single combed? And it has that puffy crest. Or do we go back to 'it isn't a breed if it isn't listed in the APA standard?'
Happy St.Patrick's Day everyone!
Never-the-less, congratulations to April Howington on her wins, but are you saying that she entered birds without crests? I am pretty sure she had a crested hen. The hen that beat mine was more gold and not crested. I think she brought three hens/Pullets and a Cockerel. The non-crested seemed to show better at that show, but there may have been other areas that those particular birds stood out too.
To my mind what many are calling 'gold birds' are not truly gold birds -- (sorry light people you haven't convinced me yet that some of the birds you are calling gold are truly gold--) So that may be a point of contention for some time to come -- but after attending a genetics seminar with Grant Brereton - I realize how totally genetically ignorant we all are...and what a huge combination of genes is lurking in all our Cream Legbars both here in the USA and most likely also in the UK.
This is not the best photo, but is April's Best of Breed Hen.
Looking forward to hearing what you learned for Grant.
- Nov 22, 2011
- 596
- 53
- 131
Wow. I have to say that I am shocked a judge is unable to tell the difference between gold and cream.
On the topic of DQs, this might be where we want to put the lack of crest as a DQ to make it quite clear this is supposed to be a crested breed. A judge is entitled to have his preferences, but to put up a non-crested bird over a crested bird when the draft standard states crested makes no sense.
My personal opinion...I'm not really interested in breeding non-crested gold legbars as I feel there isn't anything truly unique about them. They are basically a barred leghorn that can be autosexed - no crest, no cream, no unique egg color. Ditto on the silver. The Cream is truly unique because of its crest, blue eggs and silvered crele coloration (this is my best color descriptor of desirable cock[erel] not meant as a true color). Now if someone wants to develop a CRESTED Gold Legbar that lays blue eggs, to me, that would work. We know they breed true, can be crossed with Cream and they would be an American "invention" much like the Langshan in Germany has become a much different animal than the Langshans in the US, UK and Australia. The UK Auracanas are different from their US cousins. Rumpless vs. non-rump, beard v. ear feathers, etc. Just my 2 cents.
On the topic of DQs, this might be where we want to put the lack of crest as a DQ to make it quite clear this is supposed to be a crested breed. A judge is entitled to have his preferences, but to put up a non-crested bird over a crested bird when the draft standard states crested makes no sense.
My personal opinion...I'm not really interested in breeding non-crested gold legbars as I feel there isn't anything truly unique about them. They are basically a barred leghorn that can be autosexed - no crest, no cream, no unique egg color. Ditto on the silver. The Cream is truly unique because of its crest, blue eggs and silvered crele coloration (this is my best color descriptor of desirable cock[erel] not meant as a true color). Now if someone wants to develop a CRESTED Gold Legbar that lays blue eggs, to me, that would work. We know they breed true, can be crossed with Cream and they would be an American "invention" much like the Langshan in Germany has become a much different animal than the Langshans in the US, UK and Australia. The UK Auracanas are different from their US cousins. Rumpless vs. non-rump, beard v. ear feathers, etc. Just my 2 cents.
Last edited:
- Jan 14, 2008
- 5,644
- 484
- 303
The point I think you all are missing is that there is no American Standard for these birds. I ran into a similar problem with some Seramas at a show last fall. At this point only White Seramas have been admitted to the American Standard & at this show there were several other varieties, none of which conformed to any variety name or description known to the American Standard. [It appeared that people had cossed me birds & made up variety names that more or less described the appearance] In addition to the colour problem size was all over the place. Some were roughly the size of the Whites that have been admitted & others were the size of a Plymouth Rock Bantam. The was really no way for me to meaningfully judge these birds. So, I awarded them First or second place ribbons based on condition. Some of the exhibitors were unhappy but there was really nothing else I could do.
The fact that a Standard exists for Legbars in other countries matters not. In the first place until those standards are accepted here they're meaningless in an American show just as the American Standard is meaningless in other country's shows. Additionally, American Judges don't study Standards from other countries. I bought a British Standard a few years back out of curiosity but I'm confident that most American Judges have never seen one.
As to the statement about singe combed breeds & crests he/she was right as regards the American Standard at this time.
As to the breed having "a hard time", not really. No more than any other breed. There is a procedure for admitting new breeds to the Standard. If that procedure is followed & the requirements met there's no reason Legbars couldn't be admitted.
Personally, I hope the APA takes their time with this. Bowing to pressure they admitted Marans & I think they admitted them too soon. The Black Coppers were admitted first & while I see some good examples of the breed the majority that I see are very inconsistent in both type & colour. The Wheatens were admitted with colour description different than other Wheaten birds using language different than what is common to the American Standard. As a Judge I find THAT very confusing.
There are many newcomers to the Fancy in recent years & that's a good thing generally. However, among the newcomers, there are a number of people who want to see obscure breeds &/or new varities admitted to the Standard quickly without necessarily donig the work that other breeds & varieties have required. That's not a good thing. The established proceddddures have served the Fancy well for a long time-I think we need to adhere to them.
- Nov 22, 2011
- 596
- 53
- 131
Thank you for this insightful post. Please note that while there may not currently be an accepted APA SOP, we, we being the dues paying members of the Cream Legbar Club (est. 2012) with plenty of input from the BYC community interested in this breed, have been working diligently on formalizing a DRAFT Standard with advice from Walt Leonard that was sough early on.
The original imports contained birds that were incorrect as to both type and color along with better examples. A good amount of research, in addition to input from UK Fanciers/Breeders has been done to establish what should be the correct type and color for a Cream Legbar. We know it will take time and we are attempting to get it right. Folks who have exhibited their Cream Legbars have been getting valuable feedback from the judges for the most part. This particular incident was unique in that it put up birds that the majority of US Fanciers/Breeders consider incorrect...a point not be taken lightly.
I don't believe that we are attempting to rush or circumvent the system, but just because there isn't currently an APA recognized breed with a crest and single comb doesn't mean there should never be a recognized breed with same.
Something as simple as a comb can be the downfall of a breed --- consider the Dominique. As arguably the oldest American poultry breed, it is hardly an obscure chicken. According to Mark Fields, it was almost lost because of its comb.
"...January 15, 1871 ..will be forever etched in the minds of Dominique enthusiasts. On that date, politics all but wiped out the Dominique when the individuals who met to formalize the Standard of Excellence, voted that Dominiques could only exist in the rose-comb variety. They did this despite the fact that the most popular fowl of the times were the Dominiques with single combs, which some believed to be the originals. On this day, the vast majority of the Dominique stock was merged into the Plymouth Rock breed, based purely on feather pattern and the single comb. To illustrate the outright disdain some held for [the] breed, the full report contains a quote from Colonel Weld, who, speaking of the Standard then being prepared, stated ". . . we must not multiply breeds too much. It is bad enough to put Dominiques in." Relative Popularity of Poultry Breeds, Mark A. Fields, http://www.dominiqueclub.org/articles/RelativePopularity.pdf
Last edited:
- Nov 22, 2011
- 596
- 53
- 131
I went back to my Standards book to review DQs and Defects of comb. Perhaps we should take a poll and find out how many cock(erels) have combs that a) fold in front and/or b) flop over in the rear. I notice the pictures of the Reese bird has both and both of these are standard defects regardless of breed under the APA SOPs. Since there are several other standard defects/DQs with exceptions for specific breeds, i.e. vulture hocks in d'Uccles, enamel white face in Spanish White Face and squirrel tails in Japanese bantams, we should probably specifically state the comb features normally considered a defect are allowed in the Cream Legbar w/crest, IF it is a typical trait of the SC & crested birds. Note, our draft SOP allows for dropped rear comb in the hens.
Cock's Comb: Single; large, fine in texture, straight and upright, deeply and evenly serrated with six distinct points, extending well over the back of the head and following, without touching, the line of the head, free from side spikes, thumb-marks or twists.
Hen's Comb: Single; large, fine in texture, erect or first point to stand erect and the remainder of the comb dropping gracefully to the side without obscuring the eyes, deeply and evenly serrated having six distinct points.
My cockerel's comb stands upright in warm weather and rear droops over in cold weather. He also has a fold in front over his beak. Crest is what I would consider small to moderate (it's hard to see because of the sun overexposure.) Here is a head shot taken 3/9/14. Only a little bit of frostbite luckily!
Cock's Comb: Single; large, fine in texture, straight and upright, deeply and evenly serrated with six distinct points, extending well over the back of the head and following, without touching, the line of the head, free from side spikes, thumb-marks or twists.
Hen's Comb: Single; large, fine in texture, erect or first point to stand erect and the remainder of the comb dropping gracefully to the side without obscuring the eyes, deeply and evenly serrated having six distinct points.
My cockerel's comb stands upright in warm weather and rear droops over in cold weather. He also has a fold in front over his beak. Crest is what I would consider small to moderate (it's hard to see because of the sun overexposure.) Here is a head shot taken 3/9/14. Only a little bit of frostbite luckily!
Last edited:
Similar threads
New posts New threads Active threads
-
Threads with more replies in the last 15 days
-
Checking-In On Peeps - Post Here To Say Hello!- Started by Nifty-Chicken
- Replies: 1K
-
-
-
-
Can I get some help from someone with careless neighbours who own dogs.- Started by RiDaGeckoGuy
- Replies: 103
-
