2-week old lathargic Silkie with no appetite

[kelciep14]

---Droopy head, very lethargic (taken last night (Sunday) - chick had been in my care for 7ish hrs at this point.


--- Most recent poop, now she doesn't want to drop her head, of course, but this is the "up and down" I reference later.

*I figured I would copy the questions posted on the forum that is suggested for optimal assistance.*

1) What type of bird , age and weight (does the chicken seem or feel lighter or thinner than the others.)
--- Silkie - two weeks old - week younger than rest.

2) What is the behavior,
exactly.
--- Very lethargic, uninterested in eating. Sleeping while "standing", rarely has eyes open, droopy head, walks very little, if at all.

3) How long has the bird been exhibiting symptoms?
--- 24 hrs.

4) Are other birds exhibiting the same symptoms?
--- No.

5) Is there any bleeding, injury, broken bones or other sign of trauma.
--- No.

6) What happened, if anything that you know of, that may have caused the situation.
--- Cleanliness (?)

7) What has the bird been eating and drinking, if at all.
--- Water first, then water with Corrid, very little sugar water, few droplets of Gatorade.

8) How does the poop look? Normal? Bloody? Runny? etc.
--- Runny this morning, was clear watery with white.

9) What has been the treatment you have administered so far?
--- Corrid liquid

10 ) What is your intent as far as treatment? For example, do you want to treat completely yourself, or do you need help in stabilizing the bird til you can get to a vet?
--- Whatever is best.

11) If you have a picture of the wound or condition, please post it. It may help.

12) Describe the housing/bedding in use
--- She is separated from siblings, in home, paper towels.

STORYLINE:

This isn't my first rodeo raising baby chicks, however, I am certainly no expert. My 3 cockerels and pullet all (but 2) had a horrid birth experience and almost didn't make it due to their injuries, so I am now experienced in how to address that, but not with my current situation.....

I received 7 Silkies from a woman who lives about 45min - 1 hr. away. NPIP Certified, etc.

Yesterday (Sunday) late morning, I met her 20 min. to pick up my chicks. They were in a box with bedding and holes, but in the very back of the car itself with other items. I brought my chicks into my truck, on my center console, to love on them (of course) and found that 3 or 4 of the silkies has a very bad case of pasty butt which I was surprised by. Once I arrived home, my sister (who raises chicks as well), helped me bathe them and take care of their butts. We used warm water and a small amount of baby shampoo. Once they were taken care of, we removed them, placed them in towels and held them with heating pads. During this time, the brooder is of course on and warming up to 85-90 degrees. 5 of the 7 chicks were ready to play and explore once they were dry therefore we put them in the brooder. However, 2 girls were lethargic, I picked them back up and wrapped them up to continue keeping them warm and held them. 20 or so minutes later, I got their food ready (non medicated, purina start and grow) and put the 2 girls back in with the 5 to eat. 1 of the 2 girls perked right up and joined her siblings in eating. However, 1, the smallest of the bunch (1 week behind the other 6) seemed weaked, uninterested in eating, and kind of swaying from side to side. A couple of their (other girls included) poops were brown, but also looked like a very small, but obvious (not bloody, but dark red(?) worm? Line? But only a couple of those, I looked it up and everything led me to it being normal, nothing sense those few. I picked the one chick back up and loved on her longer. Coccidia, of course, first came to mind. I had Corrid liquid 9.6% on hand therefore I made a mixture and immediately started giving it to all 7. I put the weaker chick back in one more time after she had some Corrid in her system and she seemed to have perked up for a minute or 2, she walked around a bit (but was trampled over by her bigger siblings) and even pecked a little at the ground to eat, but then soon started acting the same as before. I also gave her a little of the Nurtrient Drench to help (and yes I read to NOT give vitamins with Corrid...after the fact, but lesson learned)

All night she would be up and down. She would drink as long as I was the one doing it, I would have moments thinking, "oh she's getting better!" To--,"I don't think she will make it through the night"

Throughout the night I gave her water with the Corrid mixture and a very little bit of sugar water. She woke me up this morning by chirping and thought, well that's a good sign! Took her downstairs in her isolated brooder and she was still uninterested in eating. I reached out to the woman I received the chicks from and she said they were all great prior and picked all the ones that were running like little crazy chicks and isn't sure what or why would cause these symptoms. Side note: they were not administered vaccinations, I thought they were, but now, that's besides the point)

I have reviewed Meriks Disease, Botulism, and Coccida and of course, due to my anxiety and inexperience with this, I believe all 3 could be a possibility. Currently, the chick(s) have been in my care for exactly 24 hrs.

 

[MrsBachbach]

Unless the chicks were on the ground over there, unlikely to be cocci at this point. Unless they were with older hens and pecked at feces. So, don't know if that will help. She could be carrying something, could be what is called a "non-starter". Is she significantly smaller than others? They just don't thrive and won't eat on their own.
Is the chick feed small enough? During first week some feeds are a bit of a large crumble for little chicks and they don't start eating right away.
I would skip the Corid unless you know the chick was exposed and do the Nutri Drench once a day. You may have to get some baby food like rice mix or baby food veggies and try feeding with syringe, That baby food will usually go through a syringe and see if chick will eat a bit from a syringe. Raw egg yolk is liquid enough and can provide the protein and nutrients the bird needs, but, can't feed that continually and can cause runny poop, pasty butt so be careful.
Or the pet stores may carry a pre mix for hand feeding baby birds. I think that is a sort of liquid so that might help.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Hi, welcome to BYC! Sorry you are having trouble. Silkies are VERY precious. I actually think it could be cooci... let me tell you why..

First that's what your symptoms sound like. Second Botulism would have killed by now. 3rd, too early for Marek's to show up. Mareks is not passed from hen to egg, so if chicks were hatched in an incubator makes this less likely.

Lets go to cocci now... I WOULD continue the corid water. If you insist in sugar water than I would mix them together and not provide another source. Cocci has 9 strains of which only 1 will display as blood in droppings. And even then not every dropping will have the blood. I've seen the same chick make a very runny blood poo and a couple hours later, normal. I am an extreme attention to detail type person. Cocci is in EVERY single chick/chicken poo and isn't a problem until there is an overgrowth which is flourishes in warm humid environments like those of a brooder. To the contrary, birds raised on pasture with a broody often don't get cocci because they have lots of room to forage in a non crowded space. It takes 6 days for cocci symptoms to appear, so the chick IS old enough for that. I will also say that with my first large brood that got cocci, I realized the shavings were wetter underneath than they appeared on top. So despite thinking my brooder was dry, it wasn't. One more thing, Corid does not kill cocci but rather slows it's growth by blocking thiamine. And if you treat one, all should be treated. Just because they aren't showing symptoms doesn't mean anything. They may have stronger immunity and fighting it off better. Illness always get the weakest first.

The pasty butt itself can also cause lethargy.. but usually recovery happens pretty fast, within hours in my experience.

Recovery, after you have started corid can actually take a little while. To the point I decided to get a fecal float for $15 at the vet to confirm I was correctly treating. Which they did confirm, so I continued treating and had zero loss from cocci.

Tough call in your situation. Silkies can have deficiencies but I would expect it to show up as star gazing after the lethargy, not standing and sleeping. Is she also puffed up? Fecal float is cheap, considering your investment and 100% recommend it!

Pasty butt at that age is uncalled for. That person either needs to change their feed or their brooder set up, IMHO. I wouldn't expect to see failure to thrive this late, but anything is possible. The more chickens I have the more crazy stuff I see!

Agree with previous poster that some crumbles are too large for bantams and I usually crush it a little for the first week, but not after that.

If the chick is drinking, that is what is important. She shouldn't starve to death. But dehydration is deadly! And I wouldn't try to push feed through a syringe.. you are more likely to aspirate and kill her. Think about when you are sick with the flu. Cocci are attacking the intestines, maybe she don't feel like eating. Just make the feeds available near by. And as stated by another poster offer thing with high protein, the amino acids they contain are important.

Also, I would not consider buying from that person again or recommending them. I might expect that condition from fresh hatched chicks coming from a far away hatchery. But for hand delivered breeder chicks, a couple weeks old, that's appalling!

Hard call between vitamins or corid. I don't know if you can do electrolyte mix with Corid, but I might try.

Simple electrolyte recipe is... 2 cups warm water, 2 tablespoons brown sugar, 1/2 teaspoon each baking soda and salt. stir until dissolved and serve full strength. (white sugar is OK but brown has more micro nutrients). And I would add the correct dose of Corid to that. Sorry I don't know the calculation.. figure 1 gallon is 16 cups, so if mixing for a gallon... I would do 1/8 the dose for 2 cups if that makes sense. And honestly I don't know about the benefits or drawbacks of doing this as I haven't tried it yet or needed to. But in my overthinking brain, I can't see any reason not to.

Hope this helps some!

 

[kelciep14]

Fantastic information and thank you for the welcome! Coming here has been the best source of information.

I must say, I was pretty taken back when 1) they were in the back of a car, not everyone is me, but I would have had them up front with me. 2) how many had pasty butt and how bad it was. 3) the lack of information that she was a week younger AND come to find out she was hatched by mama.

The woman was nice, helped me with incubation questions that I had and just conversing back and forth with what she suggests with silkies, what she provides for hers, etc. I wouldn't have expected them to have their poor rear ends look the ways theirs done.

I will definitely continue to Corrid, I figured at this point it doesn't hurt anything, but not treating it can certainly hurt the poor chick. And I also started the other 6 on the Corrid 5 day treatment as well.

Great suggestion for the raw egg, I will try that. I also read in many blogs to offer plain yogurt (?)

 

[kelciep14]

***most recent poop***

 

[kelciep14]

Hi, welcome to BYC! Sorry you are having trouble. Silkies are VERY precious. I actually think it could be cooci... let me tell you why..

First that's what your symptoms sound like. Second Botulism would have killed by now. 3rd, too early for Marek's to show up. Mareks is not passed from hen to egg, so if chicks were hatched in an incubator makes this less likely.

Lets go to cocci now... I WOULD continue the corid water. If you insist in sugar water than I would mix them together and not provide another source. Cocci has 9 strains of which only 1 will display as blood in droppings. And even then not every dropping will have the blood. I've seen the same chick make a very runny blood poo and a couple hours later, normal. I am an extreme attention to detail type person. Cocci is in EVERY single chick/chicken poo and isn't a problem until there is an overgrowth which is flourishes in warm humid environments like those of a brooder. To the contrary, birds raised on pasture with a broody often don't get cocci because they have lots of room to forage in a non crowded space. It takes 6 days for cocci symptoms to appear, so the chick IS old enough for that. I will also say that with my first large brood that got cocci, I realized the shavings were wetter underneath than they appeared on top. So despite thinking my brooder was dry, it wasn't. One more thing, Corid does not kill cocci but rather slows it's growth by blocking thiamine. And if you treat one, all should be treated. Just because they aren't showing symptoms doesn't mean anything. They may have stronger immunity and fighting it off better. Illness always get the weakest first.

The pasty butt itself can also cause lethargy.. but usually recovery happens pretty fast, within hours in my experience.

Recovery, after you have started corid can actually take a little while. To the point I decided to get a fecal float for $15 at the vet to confirm I was correctly treating. Which they did confirm, so I continued treating and had zero loss from cocci.

Tough call in your situation. Silkies can have deficiencies but I would expect it to show up as star gazing after the lethargy, not standing and sleeping. Is she also puffed up? Fecal float is cheap, considering your investment and 100% recommend it!

Pasty butt at that age is uncalled for. That person either needs to change their feed or their brooder set up, IMHO. I wouldn't expect to see failure to thrive this late, but anything is possible. The more chickens I have the more crazy stuff I see!

Agree with previous poster that some crumbles are too large for bantams and I usually crush it a little for the first week, but not after that.

If the chick is drinking, that is what is important. She shouldn't starve to death. But dehydration is deadly! And I wouldn't try to push feed through a syringe.. you are more likely to aspirate and kill her. Think about when you are sick with the flu. Cocci are attacking the intestines, maybe she don't feel like eating. Just make the feeds available near by. And as stated by another poster offer thing with high protein, the amino acids they contain are important.

Also, I would not consider buying from that person again or recommending them. I might expect that condition from fresh hatched chicks coming from a far away hatchery. But for hand delivered breeder chicks, a couple weeks old, that's appalling!

Hard call between vitamins or corid. I don't know if you can do electrolyte mix with Corid, but I might try.

Simple electrolyte recipe is... 2 cups warm water, 2 tablespoons brown sugar, 1/2 teaspoon each baking soda and salt. stir until dissolved and serve full strength. (white sugar is OK but brown has more micro nutrients). And I would add the correct dose of Corid to that. Sorry I don't know the calculation.. figure 1 gallon is 16 cups, so if mixing for a gallon... I would do 1/8 the dose for 2 cups if that makes sense. And honestly I don't know about the benefits or drawbacks of doing this as I haven't tried it yet or needed to. But in my overthinking brain, I can't see any reason not to.

Hope this helps some!

Well, an update is that my very sweet girl passed away early this morning. Frustrated because I have no clue what the possible reason is. Very upset as well. But she had many, many cuddles and love in her short sweet life

 

[EggSighted4Life]

So sorry for your loss.

That breeder OWES you a refund on that chick. It died in less than 24 hours. Chances are when it was up running around, it was trying to get away from her while she was trying to catch it. However it might not be worth the effort to have any contact. sometimes moving forward is the best option. I like to try and give people the benefit of the doubt... and things DO happen. Was the chick that passed one that had pasty butt? Pasty butt being a deadly condition, I would NOT let a chick having chronic issues go to another home without disclosure to keep an eye on it, AT LEAST. Did you let them know about all the pasty butt? When I have had large broods, especially of the same breed.. it is easy to miss something because you can't tell them apart. It requires more diligence. Also, I don't have a job so it's easy for me to see a lot that someone who does work all day might not notice. All that taken into consideration, if no refund is offered on the deceased chick I definitely would still not do future business or recommend them.

It's true, I probably would keep chicks in my front seat unless someone was sitting with them in the back.. but I'm part crazy chicken lady. And I know not everyone has the same thought process as me. Plus common sense really ISN'T that common.

Note that I am a serious attention to detail type person who believes in full disclosure to the point of too much information. I look for subtleties and read between the lines (being raised by heroin addict will do that to you). I notice WAY to much which probably adds to my heavy anxiety load.

Poop pics are always nice and it makes for great dinner conversation. Now where is the pic of the rest of your cute little HEALTHY flock?

 

[kelciep14]

So sorry for your loss.

That breeder OWES you a refund on that chick. It died in less than 24 hours. Chances are when it was up running around, it was trying to get away from her while she was trying to catch it. However it might not be worth the effort to have any contact. sometimes moving forward is the best option. I like to try and give people the benefit of the doubt... and things DO happen. Was the chick that passed one that had pasty butt? Pasty butt being a deadly condition, I would NOT let a chick having chronic issues go to another home without disclosure to keep an eye on it, AT LEAST. Did you let them know about all the pasty butt? When I have had large broods, especially of the same breed.. it is easy to miss something because you can't tell them apart. It requires more diligence. Also, I don't have a job so it's easy for me to see a lot that someone who does work all day might not notice. All that taken into consideration, if no refund is offered on the deceased chick I definitely would still not do future business or recommend them.

It's true, I probably would keep chicks in my front seat unless someone was sitting with them in the back.. but I'm part crazy chicken lady. And I know not everyone has the same thought process as me. Plus common sense really ISN'T that common.

Note that I am a serious attention to detail type person who believes in full disclosure to the point of too much information. I look for subtleties and read between the lines (being raised by heroin addict will do that to you). I notice WAY to much which probably adds to my heavy anxiety load.

Poop pics are always nice and it makes for great dinner conversation. Now where is the pic of the rest of your cute little HEALTHY flock?

She was unfortunately one of my sweet girls with the bad pasty butt. Do you believe a possibility could be that she had it for a long period of time before arriving to me that the damage had already been done by that point? I mean, I was not home for 10 mins before cleaning their cute butts.

I am with you on the attention to detail!! I give more information than asked for, but that builds security on my side.

3 large pieces of information that was not disclosed was that 1) she was hatched by mom 2) she was a week younger and last, but not least, 3) NONE have vaccinations. Which in conversation, it was asked, but quickly forgotten due to other topics (im guilty in that department)

I do not believe she is breeding to the point of missing such noticeable pasty butt(s) and I also do not believe she works, but I could be incorrect.

I am frustrated and so upset, I contacted her and said she had passed, but nothing yet and not sure I would like further contact. Things DO happen, but the pasty butts and all that, that was setting them up for failure and me as well, as their Chick Mommy.

Here's 2 of my sweet girls!! I'll take more of the other beauties

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Pretty babies!

How do you know they are girls? You can't sex silkies that young, except MAYBE by behavior.. and even then it's usually just a guess. Anyways we always call them him until we know they are girls. But I don't know if there is an actual correct term for still unknown gender chicks.. just over think a little. Too much time to be curious about mostly irrelevant stuff.

I don't know how long it takes for pasty butt to kill, but more than 2 ish hours I am guessing. And they show signs of being sluggish way before that. But maybe, add dehydration if she had them in there for an extended period of time while running errands or whatever? How many did you get total? Surprised they weren't checked as they were put into the box. I want my birds to go out in the BEST condition possible. I'm considering getting NPIP but not sure the hassle of breeding is worth the fees and such. I would expect my current set up to be on par with at least acceptable or real close! Of course disease testing, I would hope to pass, but don't know for sure until the test is done. It's hard work... to do it right. Takes lots of facilities and property, not to mention time and energy. Probably could/should try for 1 year and see if it covers itself plus covers some other cost or if it's a wash. Chickens on small scale aren't huge $ makers.. But, it would be nice to cover some cost of my hobby! Of course the pay off is already bigger than the cost or I wouldn't be doing it. But it's a definite learning curve. I don't know if they do it for chicks and hatching eggs or only eating eggs/chicken, but I would also try to get an AWA (animal welfare approved) seal of approval which has higher standards than humane certified and is only given to small family farms. I currently have Marans and Silkies. Swedish Flower too, but I'm moving on from them. They were fun.

I was duped into buying chicks that were broody hatched as well! Shame on me for not asking. Who takes babies away from a mama like a predator after letting her sit long enough to hatch AND lose condition?! I guess more people than I thought... some people!!

Yay to the rest happy, healthy, peeping, pooing, little buggers!

I do not do vaccines for my chickens. The only one I know of (I'm no expert) is Marek's, and that only is supposed to build immunity and does NOT mean a chick won't catch it at some point and still even possibly die. It cannot be passed from hen to egg. So incubated eggs are at less risk than broody hatched. Also if they've been only in a brooder they should not have any risk of external parasites. Which I did eventually find lice on those Turken chicks that were broody hatched, funny they have less feather than anybody else. Could have easily came from my place, we have wild animals galore. Maybe it's just coincidence that I found them on those birds first. Anyways everybody gets treated. No chicken left behind!

Salmonella can be transmitted to the egg. So I don't know how that would effect incubation, or if they would even hatch. And I *think* that *might* be part of the NPIP testing, but not sure. And I don't know of any vaccine for that.

I DO keep learning though.. and get better at asking questions all the time. It takes LOTS of practice! So BEWARE of chicken math. Goes something like.. 3 chicks - 1 chick = 14 chicks. 14 chicks + some worms = 14 hens, 6 ducks and 2 goats!! Word problems were always a bit harder. We don't talk #'s cause it makes my hubby nervous. But he enjoys seeing them on pasture and eating eggs at least.

Sorry so long... I'm procrastinating what really needs to be done because my sister in Love (law) and her family will be here in a few hours. That's to me for my usual unmotivated behavior. We will still have fun though.