27% Duckling Starter?

[Wifezilla]

Still waiting for the science.

Most people who have been in car accidents have eaten carrots within the past year. That does not mean carrots cause car accidents.

"What’s wrong with this statement?

Children raised in homes with more appliances tend to perform better in school. Therefore, appliances improve intelligence.

That sounds like a pretty outrageous claim, but you’d be surprised how many people fall into this logical fallacy on a daily basis. Just because two events or phenomena tend to happen together does not necessarily mean that one causes the other. Correlation does not imply causation. We shouldn’t assume that the way to improve school test scores is to throw more toasters into the kids’ homes. That obviously won’t work."
http://btr.michaelkwan.com/2009/01/10/correlation-does-not-imply-causation/

 

[CityChicker]

Oh Lord, don't get me started. You are not actually going to accuse others of fallacious reasoning, are you? LOL. I see so many flaws in your logic, Wifezilla, it is astounding that you would accuse your opponents of committing logical fallacies. I previously chose to just let this topic die because I can see it is completely pointless. Every post made in this thread just proves it even more. Anyone can easily go back to page one and see who stormed into the thread guns blazing, looking for a fight. I honestly do not believe that any amount of research or evidence would change your mind on this issue, Linda. It is far too personal to you. You ask for research and evidence and yet discount everything said in opposition to you. Why would anyone bother to continue?

It is really a shame some of what has been said on this thread. It is impossible to have a reasoned debate with someone when that person personally insults their opponents, ask for research, but then discounts it as biased, put words in their opponent's mouths, take things to extremes, and basically discounts everything said in opposition to them. I will defer to what little scholarly research has been done, my own experience, and the experience of literally every major waterfowl breeder in the world. Again, every one of them cites protein as the primary cause of Angel wing in domestic waterfowl. That is not something that can easily be discounted by someone with very limited experience with waterfowl. I'm sorry, that is not a personal insult. It is just reality. Why should we consider ALL OF THEM wrong and you right, Wifezilla?

You will believe what you will believe. I think some of the things said here are really unfortunate. I don't think there is any possibility of having an adult conversation here at this point with the level that some have stooped to. It really is a shame. I *do* have some studies to post and I *am* considering working with Angel wing when I begin working on my Ph.D. There is not a chance in heck that I will be posting about it on BYC and opening myself up to further ridicule.

 

[Wifezilla]

You ask for research and evidence and yet discount everything said in opposition to you. Why would anyone bother to continue?

I asked for links to studies people claimed have already been done and got ZERO.

I am GLAD you are going to do further research on this. The inability of people to actually show any science on this is very disturbing. I do find it curious that someone who really wants to know the answer would not consider posting research to people who would benefit. After all, when you have a theory, you are supposed to try and disprove it. Not opening up your information up to scrutiny is pretty "anti-sciencey".

I have opened up my ideas and we have 7 pages of bashing. Not DISPROVING, but insulting. And since I am the one getting insulted and ridiculed, I REALLY have to laugh now. I have been reading every research paper I can get my hands on trying to find facts. What I have gotten from those who believe protein is the cause is "some guy said" or "it's in German". Well since my mother-in-law is German, I can have anything translated so don't let that stop anyone from posting data. I also have friends that speak Spanish and French and welcome papers in those languages as well.


Now this USGS site lists manganese deficiency as a possible cause. On this page it is tied to perosis (leg problems). They also cite excess calcium which depresses manganese absorption. Protein is mentioned, but is it excess protein, not enough manganese or only the combination of the two? Since they use the word MAYBE, they don't know for sure either. Again...we need an actual study.

"Other causes of perosis (Perosis) may include an excessively high protein diet, choline deficiency, possibly deficiencies of nicotinic acid, pyridoxine, biotin or folic acid (B13.46.w1, B32.2.w23)."
http://usgs.wildlifeinformation.org/S/00dis/Micronutrient/Manganese_Deficiency.htm

If you follow the link to their general feeding guidelines, this interesting statement pops up...
"Feeds provided in captivity should be designed to emulate the nutritional content of the natural diet of the species being fed."
Now this is the basis of my hypothesis that angel wing is not caused by excess protein.
They then go on to give the standard recommendation to start at 20% protein and then go down to 15%. Is this how ducklings in the wild feed?

Further info goes on to give GUESSES as to other possible causes of angel. The words THOUGHT TO, POSSIBLE and MAY are used A LOT.
http://usgs.wildlifeinformation.org/S/00dis/Miscellaneous/Angel_Wing.htm​

 

[Buttercup Chillin]

I did not read all the writes.

Hope someone had you give them some greens. I have only had Muscovies for 2 years and of my first ducks 2 had Angel wing. I got them when they were about 6 weeks old. I think it was Keeperofthehearth that told me to make sure they get greens. So ....

Duckings, have free choice of feed, mixed grain, pea soup, finely chopped greens (Romaine, Kale, Turnip, Collards). Romain and Kale are favorites, I probably spent $8-$10 a week for them on Greens . I use a lot of Kitty dishes then on to pie pans around here.

I would mix the High Protein with the lower in a 3/1 ratio once they are a little older to use it up. I use regular 16% grower feed. But now that the latest batch is near to lay they are on Gamebird feed because I have an excess at the moment. However, they have free choice of feed or Mixed grains. They usually eat grain one day and feed the next. There are also days when the pickings must be real good and they don't eat much from their feed dishes and the chickens have to clean up after them.

I do believe that Angelwing is genetic and comes out at times for various reasons. In other words, it has to be in their genes to come out with 2 much Protein or to much whatever. But on their own they eat a lot of protein. I have only had 2 Duckings (Drakelets) with it from 5 different hatches from 3 of the original ducks. If my girls ever start laying, we should find out what will happen with the 3rd generation.

Weak Legs, I sprinkle Nutrional Yeast on their feed or grains. Most people on here use Brewers yeast though. Either one. But if your babies are still haveing leg problems and you are giving the Niacin in the water. Get some Yeast into them.

Good luck and enjoy your babies.

edited to say duckling grains are coarse ground. I give them a mixture of Millet, Amaranth, Buckwheat, corn, Milo, Oatmeal Groats, Brown Rice, Wild Rice, etc.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

It can be genetic to a degree. But it's diet that causes it, regardless of the underlining cause.
Now if you feed the same diet over and over to your birds that come from angle wing parents, yep, there's a good shot their offspring will get it, not that angle wing itself has been genetically passed on, BUT that their sensitivity to "WHAT EVER" it is in the feed that causes angle wing has been passed on.
If you correct the diet, the offspring will not have it, if you continue with the same diet, there's a greater risk they will continue to get it.
This goes back to the statement that , not all waterfowl will developing, but yes, some are more genetically exposed to being effected by it.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

"They then go on to give the standard recommendation to start at 20% protein and then go down to 15%. Is this how ducklings in the wild feed? "



In all actuality, yes it is.
Nature is funny this way, animals have what is call instincts, or sixth sense.
When their bodies are in need of certain items, their brain triggers receptors to make them crave food sources that contain these needed items in them.
Case in point, dogs and cats, well any carnivore for that matter, eating grass as needed, is that part of their natural diet, nope, but they are being told internally to eat it.

Well it works the same with birds too. The first 4 weeks of any birds life cycle are their fastest growing period they will ever have, thus the brain makes them crave certain food sources to accommodate their rapidly growing body, more bugs or aquatic life in a ducks case. After 4-5 weeks, they start slowing down on their growth rate, at this point, they slow down on the cravings being sent to the brain, thus start more to a natural diet of vegetation. So yes, to answer your question, in the wild, they eat a higher protein level the first few weeks, then naturally slow down on the intake . SO to recommend 18- 20% feed at first then lowered to 16-15% after the initial growth spurt, is perfectly logical, and a correct mimic of a natural "wild" diet intake. These are common facts that anyone with a minor understanding of biology should already know.

As I have mentioned several times before, puddle ducks or dabblers, are vegetation eaters, not carnivorous ducks, therefore naturally they have a much lower protein level intake than many of the diver species. ALL DOMESTIC ducks fall into this category of waterfowl, only migratory keepers will have carnivorous ducks. Those species do require high protein levels.
The problem lies with us not following these guidelines, or going over board with or "more is always better" attitude in life. Nature doesn't work that way. When an animal becomes gluttonous, thier end results are usually always damage in one way or the other to the body.
I agree in the reports that calcium and magnesium deficiencies, coupled with over intake of protein and carbs, are the main cause of wing disfigurement.
It is perfectly logical, and I have seen it first hand a million times, so I need no scientist to tell me this is true. Again it's basic logic of biology. Protein is intended to grow muscle mass, the heaviest part of any animal structure. Carbs, in overabundance add fat, the second heaviest body mass. Magnesium and calcium, are intended for skeletal strength and growth.
Alright, add all these up, a lot of rapid growing muscle mass, excess fat , weak under developed skeletal structure.....=a heavy body with minimal support = leg and wing deformities...kind of basic math. Oh yeah, be sure to add the gravity factor in there too, pulling down on all that math....it's no wonder the poor little buggers get bow legged and twisted wings.
Also will add, this moat commonly occurs during the blood feather period of the primary flight feathers, which adds even more weight to them in a rapid manner, which consequently, are feed by protein levels.
Dave Holderread has a book on the subject from his years of research on this subject, it's only $6 shipped, I would suggest anyone interested in learning more about the subject buys a copy....Like myself, he has 20 year experience keeping waterfowl, his are just all domestic breeds. Also he has personally done private research in this, along with many other common problems, unlike me, he has published his results and findings. So go check it out....

 

[Zombie duck]

Follow the science..it's safe and effective