A Controversy: Breeders vs. Hatcheries

Not all breeders are the same. Not all hatcheries are the same. One unethical breeder does not mean that all breeders are unethical. One unethical hatchery does not mean that all hatcheries are unethical.

If you are going to be satisfied with what you get, you need to first know what you want. Then you have to find a source that has what you want.

Some breeders breed to the SOP. Some breeders may be trying to create a six-toed Orpington. Some may be trying to create a new color of a recognized breed. Some may be breeding to the SOP combined with good egg production. Some breeders know what they are doing better than others.

Different hatcheries have different business plans and different methods of operation so I will not say that all hatcheries do this or that, any more than I'll say all breeders do this or that. So when I say something, it is for some of them, not all.

Many hatcheries do breed to the SOP, but they tend to use different methods than the good breeders. A good breeder will pair a specific rooster with a specific hen or maybe two specific hens to try to get exactly what he wants. He may even have a specific pairing to try to breed a prize winning male, knowing he is very unlikely to get a prize winning female from that combination. Good breeders are very good.

Hatcheries don't get that specific. They may pick their breeders based on the SOP, but they don't pair them up. They use pen breeding, where you might have 20 roosters randomly mating with 200 hens. You can occasionally get some birds pretty close to the SOP, but with random pen breeding, that is pretty unlikely. And you will notice that the hatcheries don't charge the same price as the good breeders. They have a certain place in the marketplace, and that is supplying decent birds that in general represent the breed. If they were breeding grand champions, their prices would reflect that.

Even the best breeders cull most of their birds, selecting a fairly small percent of birds hatched to continue the breeding program. The rest are not up to standard. The hatcheries use pen breeding instead of pairing up breeders so is it any surprise that a lot more of their birds are culls?

Will you get a higher quality bird from a breeder? That kind of depends on what you mean by higher quality. If you mean a bird closer to the SOP than you are likely to get from a hatchery, yes, IF you choose a breeder that is breeding to the SOP and knows what they are doing. Even their culls are much more likely to be closer to the SOP. So if you are going to try to develop your own line of grand champions, you will start closer to your goal if you choose birds from a good breeder that is breeding to the SOP, even if you get his culls.
 
I very much agree with Boggy Bottom Bantams and Ridge, which was why I made the distinction "good, reputable breeders, not just local propagators" in my above post. Not all breeders are equal, not all hatcheries are equal.

I do find that if a bird looks vaguely like the breed it's supposed to be, a hatchery will sell it. That is fine for most backyard flock owners; that is, until they see an example of the breed that is somewhat close the the Standard of Perfection. For example, a friend of mine once said to me that the show quality Barred Rocks were so different from what she was used to as a McMurray customer that they were almost like a completely different breed variety to her. That's how wide the gap can be.
 
very true.
same goes for most any of them. a true SQ SOP bird will not look anything like what 99% of hatchery stock ends up being.
Doesnt make them bad pets, just poorer example of the breed in it utmost perfect form.

My biggest problem is hatcheries trying to PLAY breeder by making new colors. Selling them as that color in that breed and when you get them it is so obvious that they are only an F1 maybe F2 outcross between breeds. This is false advertisement. It is either an old english bantam (or what ever the case may be) or it's a mutt.


Seen many buying the "lavender silkies" offered by 1 hatchery. Got some myself...all single combed, pink legged, mongrels. Many even with hard feathers not silkie fuzz and only 4 toes per foot.

When a bird is that far off standard, not even exhibiting the basic traits of the breed, yet are sold as that breed...well it's false advertising.
I can see 1-2 in a batch, but everyone of this particular ones I have had or have seen here on BYC are all the same.

Stuff like that needs to stop. You are doing nothing for the breed if you try to create new colors and begin selling after the first initial out cross.

This is a little personal to me as I breed for new colors myself. Difference is, until the chicks are showing reliable signs of being correct back to the breed if outcrossed, they'll never leave here.
A basic within the breed crossing takes on average 2-4 years to develop. Outcrossing can go up to 10 years to get back perfect to the color and type of breed working on.
Hatcheries dont have this type of dedication is my biggest problem with this. Either do it right, be honest to your customers and give them what they pay for. OR leave it to the dedicated breeders who are willing to spend the time and effort to make it what it needs to be.
 
Quote:
Is this kind of hatchery experience common? I ask because although I've only ordered from hatcheries a handful of times, I've never had a DOA or lost a chick. I've never considered myself a lucky person but if I'm beating those odds I think I'll start playing the lottery!
smile.png
 
Three orders placed with Ideal Hatchery and never a dead one upon arrival. Two of those orders was several weeks back when it was super hot.

I agree about the differences in the quality you CAN get from a breed vs. hatchery. I tell you one thing that is true: A hatchery bird might not have every good marking, build, and look of an SOP bird, but I guarantee you either one is still a CHICKEN!
D.gif
 
Last edited:
I was one of those people that was happy to get my hatchery birds....but a tad disappointed to find out how far off from SOP they were.( I was very naive to chickens!) I got over it quickly and still love my birds...but when i sell one, I inform them they are HQ...not SQ. I do agree with others that if you want true SOP....you have to search out a dedicated,obsessed chicken owner who focuses on just a few breeds or one.I have had very good dealings with MPC, Cackle and McMurray personally. I have gotten all the right numbers of hens I ordered. My "free exotic" was even a Golden Sebright HEN.....so I was pleased with that! I have so far had none DOA and the only chicks I have had die shortly (within a day) of purchase were from TSC.
I understand that MPC and TSC get their chicks from big hatcheries, but I do not know which ones.Personally, I would love to someday get some SOP breeds to breed myself but right now I am enjoying the entertainment, meat and eggs I get from my HQ birds.
I don't necessarily think one is BETTER than the other....just different and for different focus. I do think with some of the hatcheries,they could be a little more picky in the breeding......but I don't know how they run so i don't know how hard that is...I for one am happy with the birds I own and love to see SQ birds on here and at the Fairs
smile.png


Oops...signed in under my DD's name...NYRIR
 
Last edited:
Quote:
Is this kind of hatchery experience common? I ask because although I've only ordered from hatcheries a handful of times, I've never had a DOA or lost a chick. I've never considered myself a lucky person but if I'm beating those odds I think I'll start playing the lottery!
smile.png


yes unfortunately it is very common. If you doubt me on that , just do a quick search on here and you'll be blown away at all the threads and post about the subject.

It is more common on small bantams than large fowl obviously, because they are so small and fragile.
also more common in cooler months, and with those that order just a handful.

Happens with all hatcheries, some are just way more extreme than others. Main thing, those that tell you so and so hatchery always gets then there alive, well ask how long they were in transit. If just one day, well sure they live right next to them and will have little trouble.

Problem lies in the 2-4 day shipping you often get with Priority mail if you dont live in an adjacent state to the hatchery. One thing that would simply prevent this would be for them to offer upgrade shipping to Express mail if the customer preferred it. I'd get it every time. It makes a heck of a difference in vitality on arrival for the chicks. I have asked the 3 major hatcheries to do this for me on orders. Well it's too much trouble for them and they just wont even if you tell them you'll pay the extra and extra for their time.

The reply is always the same....they'll be fine and if you do have a problem, we have a arrive a live deal. Well that's more work for me. Have to document it, sent it in to them, then if enough didnt die to meet their min order, you have to order more on top of it to get back to that level, etc

A simple shipping upgrade for distant customer would be so much better. Like me, I told one on the 3-4th order, listen, I need these just for color work, but they have died every order, every time, please upgrade for me. Got the same response I just listed. So basically, in my eyes, they just dont care
 
There is a hatchery review available on this form, so you can look through and make your own decision about what most people experience as far as live deliveries.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmXAmgx4qOPEdFgtdGk1YVFDXzFSMWRSaTFYUWQweXc&hl=en#gid=0

As Boggy suggested, some of that depends on where you live. The hatcheries don't have any real control over it once they ship, some post offices are more isolated and take a day extra to get shipments to. Not all airlines accept day old poultry as cargo, so if one of those airlines is the one with the cargo contract with the post office for that area, they could not ship express anyway. But I expect many hatcheries have standard policies that they only ship standard. If you are shipping 80,000 to 100,000 chicks a week, special handling really messes up their system and would get real expensive internally, let alone what the airlines would charge.

I have not ordered enough separate shipments from all hatcheires to be able to speak to what all hatcheries normally do, but my limited experience has been much closer to zero DOA and zero dead after a week than a 50% rate for either.

Speckledhen, you've mentioned those Red Sex Links in different posts and your bad experiences with them. I wonder if the ones you are getting are the commercial layers, the Dekalb or ISA's maybe, that are designed to lay real well for a while but then burn out. They are also designed for the commercial conditions and may be a little too delicate to chase grasshoppers or scratch for worms. Some hatcheries specifically tell you that their RSL are crosses between certain breeds, while some don't do that. Different people report different results for their hatchery RSL. I think this is just another case that not all hatcheries are the same, same as not all breeders are the same.
 
N&MSchroeder :

I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but won't most breeders be selling their culls? I started thinking about this after reading a thread here on BYC where a prominent breeder stated that he would not sell his stock to just anyone. Anyone buying his stock would have to show serious commitment and have experience with the breed. He chooses not to sell his culls in order to preserve the breed, which is commendable but I have to believe he is the exception rather than the rule. I don't show chickens, but we raise Hereford cattle and each year we pick from the top heifers as replacement stock and sell the rest. It just makes good sense to keep the best when building a program. While some breeders may have developed their lines to an extent where even the culls are show quality (and I am sure that many are here on BYC), I have to believe that most breeders are still working toward a SOP and have lesser quality birds they have to sell in order to maintain their current flock. So will you get a higher quality bird from a breeder? I am not sure there is a definitive answer to this question.

I don't know most breeders but I do know a lot of breeders. None sell their culls to people interested in breeding/showing. Anyone who did that would soon find that no one wanted to buy from them any more. The poultry community is pretty small & a bad reputation spreads fast. My culls go to either a local auction where people who are just looking for chickens go or I give them away to the same sort of folks. People interested in breeding/showing who buy birds from me get birds that I would use if I didn't sell them. More than once I have been beaten at a show by a bird I sold. I don't mind because that in itself is great publicity.
As to to OP: there is no controversy. Hatcheries [with the exception of Urch/Turnland] don't produce well bred birds. Their goal is quantity not quality. From your comments it sounds like a hatchery would be the right place for you to buy chickens. Nothing wrong with that if they meet your needs. BTW: I've never seen birds from Cackle but Ideal is not known for producing quality birds at least according to my definition. Any Ideal birds I have ever seen fell far short of breed standards. I judged a fair last week & saw an Ideal Sebright that weighed nearly 4 pounds. That's pretty typical of hatchery bantams, way too big.

ETA: as I've said mant times on other threads everyone who produces birds to sell isn't a breeder, many are reproducers of poor quality stock who think breeding is no more complex than putting a male & a female in a cage together. There are many on this site who bought birds from a hatchery, mated them up & now call themselves breeders. More than once I've seen people here report that they just got 8 chicks of some breed & they will be selling hatching eggs or chicks from them as soon as they start laying. That's not a breeder but people get taken in by them all the time.
If that's the kind of "breeder" you're talking about then you might as well buy from a hatchery. Responsible breeders are altogether different.​
 
Last edited:
Quote:
And if that's what meets your needs there's no good reason not to buy from a hatchery. Nothing wrong with it. The problem is when people buy from a hatchery hoping for something more than just a chicken. I judge severl fairs & I always feel bad when I disqualify a bird that is so poorly bred that it doesn't even approach the Standard description. Clearly people who enter these birds did so thinking they had gotten more that just a chicken.
 

New posts New threads Active threads

Back
Top Bottom