American Reza (Pakistani) Asil

[RFoxfire]

I agree with most of this except the Atkinson was added by Henry Lucas or Paul Hartong before McConaughey got them? Reynolds got his from McConaughey. I dont believe any more Atkinson was added until DR Dave and Mr Hanson got them. They also added Col. Hightower asil, Hyderabad from Dr Waseem, and Boles asil from Larry Lingerfelt . Neither Atkinson or Hyderabad was added by Mr Byrd or Mr Harris. Reynolds did refer to them as Atkinson and also Desi but i dont know why. Desi is mixed breed in India not considered asil. You also mentioned Mr Chambers and his birds were not game so were never added to Byrd's or Harris's lines.

I am not here to argue history I wasn’t around for. Was sharing some of what I learned through conversation and research. More important than those is observation, and adjusting where needed.

Contradictions can be found in gamefowl history, that I am certain of. I don’t know what occurs at someone’s brood pens, except my own.

At the end of the day, the fowl are what matter most. Their preservation, and quality.

 

[determed]

Okay i was just saying what i was told. I dont claim to be an asil historian. Just repeating what i was told

I understand sir. Not saying you are. I know a fair bit but watch my tongue. Not everyone is patient or understanding.
Women of Punjabi culture call themselves desi girls.
Reason why they call thise pakistani desi? Because Punjab are bred fir working class labour. Such as fireman, farmer policeman , hydro worker , construction , military, fighter etc. The asil falls into same category.
Once my parents were ridiculed for stating that the birds we preserved were ancient, over a 1000 years in preservation. Things git heated. My mom said if you do not believe then go look inside this temple in India. You will see hyroglyphic art that portrays aliens on the left and maharaja on the right. The maharaja are welcoming the aliens with arms wide open and jewels, sapphires, diamonds, emeralds , gold ...... and behind the real sages with offerings were our asil. Standing tall walking behind the royal sages. That hyroglyphic is over 3000 years old.
Our Indian asil still look like those drawings. Pakistani came later.
You have your own strain sir, that's more than my birds. I just carried on , told what to do . No choice. But yiu have cultivated a bird that is more than remarkable. You surely must know this. You are advanced, more than I. I am history you are, now.
In my 50s now all i have is history to look after. You are ahead of the asil world.
Have a great day. Full moon is coming in capricorn. My birds have been laying and its -18 below 0. Unreal.

 

[Tiger747]

If I am not mistaken, there is a Pakistani - American breeder in Virginia, his fowl seem to be of Pakistan directly as he is originally from there and travels back. His fowl are distinctive, understandably so.

American Asils have a 137 year history of importations, travel up and down the Atlantic Seaboard, then out west to California and back East, becoming established in Middle America, all the while what survived arduous tests and trials was obviously perpetuated and blended. Of course breeders were (and still are) concerned with form, function and performance, otherwise they are not gamefowl. The original asils imported to the US were the small Reza type for a reason.

Some breeders prefer them taller and larger around 7-8lbs, some prefer them closer to 4 lbs. This type of variation always existed, based on one’s selection, style, not to mention environment.

If you read work by Mr. H. Atkinson, he describes the best in his opinion but also in the opinion of the Indian breeders he met while living in India. They were the smaller asils, because of style (and maybe social circles/status). Mr. Atkinson is who facilitated the early importations to American breeders like Dr. H. P. Clarke in 1887, Mr. McCoy, Mr. Graves, Mr. E. A. Wheeler (1910-1930s). According to Mr. C. A. Finsterbush, they were ‘Rajah Murgh’, mostly from in and around Lucknow. Greys, light and dark reds and black Asil were imported from Lahore and Rampur also. Mr. C. A. Finsterbusch writes about this history, and some of the various strains in their homeland, but what made an impression on the American roostermen and their fowl were the 4 to 5 pound Asil. No one should wonder too hard on where the pea comb trait among American Gamefowl derived.

Also, Mr. Manuel Reynolds was breeding ‘Atkinson Asil’ since 1947. Once he got the imported Desi Asil in the 1960s, they became the foundation. Having said this, he bred the Atkinson blood in twice before Mr. C. Hanson got them.

Despite what can be read by Dr. Everett on feathersite, Manuel Reynolds did not have Hyderabad Asil.

I’ve spoke with Mr. C. Hanson, he imported the Hyderabad Asil fowl (as we know them here), not Mr. Reynolds. This does not means that all ‘Reynolds Asil’ have the Hyderabad Asil blood in them, what it does mean however, is that all ‘Hyderabad Asil’ here in the US (if from the various American Asil families up to this point of the shared history) likely have the Desi Asil blood (along with Atkinson and likely ‘Kaptan’ blood) as a foundation.

Folks still maintain and breed correctly, the old Asil blood, but the climate, properties in the soil, feed, severe winters, various styles, all made them different than how they were the previous centuries and beyond in Punjab and Sindh.

I have literature from the day that states Dr H. P. Clarke imported Cornish Games (Indian Games). The Dr wrote extensively about Cornish Games and only mentions Asil and Malay in passing.

 

[RFoxfire]

I have literature from the day that states Dr H. P. Clarke imported Cornish Games (Indian Games). The Dr wrote extensively about Cornish Games and only mentions Asil and Malay in passing.

 

[RFoxfire]

This is a drawing I saw recently of “Cornish Indian Game as bred by C. D. Smith, Ft. Plains, NY, 1897.

Most of my research is from gamefowl literature, namely Finsterbusche and Atkinson books, which get cited and used as resources and reprinted. So who knows, I was not there.

What I do know, is that the American history does go back to that time, otherwise we wouldn’t also be reading about GAME oriental (no matter what name given to them) fowl being successfully used. By the many who inevitably started using and breeding Asil. Countless more references out there to suggest that they arrive 1880s to the US.

 

[Tiger747]

This is a drawing I saw recently of “Cornish Indian Game as bred by C. D. Smith, Ft. Plains, NY, 1897.

Most of my research is from gamefowl literature, namely Finsterbusche and Atkinson books, which get cited and used as resources and reprinted. So who knows, I was not there.

What I do know, is that the American history does go back to that time, otherwise we wouldn’t also be reading about GAME oriental (no matter what name given to them) fowl being successfully used. By the many who inevitably started using and breeding Asil. Countless more references out there to suggest that they arrive 1880s to the US.

I also so a copy of a letter written by Allen about his Allen Roundhead gamefowl, and he states Asil was never used in their creation. We often read about "Japs" in the early literature, but no one states what they are. I can't imagine it's Shamo. I do think Malay is pivotal to many breeds. As far as Asil, my readings indicate Dr Clarke imported Cornish Games, and did refer to them as nothing more than "grade Asils", and worthless for cockfighting in Western countries.

 

[Bigtom Turkey]

So, I am familiar with raising gamefowl, and have for a while, but I don't have any experience competing. Oriental gamefowl seem to have better style but are too slow to compete in western countries? Is that accurate?

 

[Tiger747]

So, I am familiar with raising gamefowl, and have for a while, but I don't have any experience competing. Oriental gamefowl seem to have better style but are too slow to compete in western countries? Is that accurate?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...wQFnoECCYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1Te_hMuf4innwiDTaLXm4G

 

[Tiger747]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...wQFnoECCYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1Te_hMuf4innwiDTaLXm4G

Above is the link about the Clarke importations. Archive.org. The fighting assessment on.Asils was from a book about American.Gamefowl written in the very late 1800's. It, too, mentions Dr. Clarke-- but only one sentence. Lol. No....
Asils evidently are biters, and thus worthless for spur fighting. His contention was " upu cannot have too much of a good thing" so why, then, do people cross to oriental, only to breed it back out to 1/4, or even 1/8th?

 

[RFoxfire]

I have literature from the day that states Dr H. P. Clarke imported Cornish Games (Indian Games). The Dr wrote extensively about Cornish Games and only mentions Asil and Malay in passing.

I also so a copy of a letter written by Allen about his Allen Roundhead gamefowl, and he states Asil was never used in their creation. We often read about "Japs" in the early literature, but no one states what they are. I can't imagine it's Shamo. I do think Malay is pivotal to many breeds. As far as Asil, my readings indicate Dr Clarke imported Cornish Games, and did refer to them as nothing more than "grade Asils", and worthless for cockfighting in Western countries.

Have you considered that either Dr. Clarke imported both mongrel “Cornish / Peasant Malay / Indian Game” as the English-bred, non-game, meat/exhibition variety was then known as, and also actual Asil, true Indian Gamefowl; or, that there was simply a confusion when it came to what to call these fowl in their various forms from “grade Asil” to pure GAME fowl of India known as Asil?

Mr. H. Atkinson wrote that he knew the breed Asil, himself breeding them since 1883, and that he did send to Dr. Clarke some Asil in 1887. Not Cornish. This is made clear and in my opinion is the authority on the matter in a compilation of letters and writing that were published after his death. Please refer to these quotations below from:

‘Cock-Fighting and Game Fowl from the Note-Books of Herbert Atkinson of Ewelme together with the Life and Letters of John Harris, the Cornish Cocker’
Published by George Bayntun, Bath, 1938:

“I have for many years been a lover of the true Indian Game known as Asil. He is the gamest and oldest pure breed of domestic poultry : a wonderful example of breeding for ages for one purpose.” That purpose obviously being combat.

“As I have had no small experience of the breed since the year 1883, both in this country and in India, I have from my own experiences, and from those of Anglo-Indian and native Fancier sportsmen, assisted also by Eastern books on the subject, written this account of the breed.”

“As soon as we had communication with India the Indian breed of Game Cocks became known here, being seen and probably often brought home by Englishmen.
There is a tradition that two cocks of the breed sent home as presents to King Charles the Second sore fought bate Cocks he Royal Pit at Newmarket.
About the year 1760 some Asil Game Cocks were fought and beaten in a main at Market Drayton. Previous to this the picture of an Indian and an English cock doing battle had been painted by Reid, animal painter to King George the Second.”

“When a child of six or seven years old, I was more fond of watching old Tommy’s feathered warriors in their pens than going to school, so that writing is not my forte, but many of the present-day poultry papers both in England and America contain the greatest rot that mercenary fanciers and mushroom breeders of ephemeral experience are capable of writing, while very few of our fancy papers contain anything practical and reliable, thus the one true and fighting Game Fowl of India is constantly mixed up with the fancy worthless Pheasant Malay, now christened " Indian Game" by a certain class of fanciers, and to give colour to the name state they were crossed with birds sent over by Sir George Gilbert, which is without the slightest foundation, for Sir George Gilbert never existed.
Lord Clive brought many home to Shropshire that could not be killed, and would not be stopped. Those imported by Colonel, afterwards Sir Walter Raleigh Gilbert, became extinct long before the advent of the Pheasant Malays, or " Cornish Indian Game," which is one and the same breed.”

“It was here I first met the American, Dr Clarke,' though we had corresponded some years before and I had sent him out Asil Indians since 1887…Dr. Clarke had some good fighting cocks…One evening the Doctor was very pressing to fight a bird against a stag of mine, the only one I had left unfought, barely 5 lbs. ; his proved to be a Jap stag of 6 lbs. I consented for the sport and a bottle of wine; of course, he won though not too easily, the Jap getting badly hurt. This was the only battle I ever fought against the Doctor.” Herbert Atkinson, Bayntun, G., 1938

If you read what Mr. H. Atkinson writes about the Asil, you will know why Asil breeders in the US who also appreciate their history, understand the initial import date of 1887.

As far as Allen Roundhead history goes, what is your point? The earliest literature I have found on the “Boston Roundheads” predates the other Roundheads in America, and was written by Mr. Joseph Wingate. They do not specify where the “pea comb / round head” derives, but that the fowl came over from Ireland to Massachusetts in the 1854-1856 range. When Mr. John Stone, bred brown red to black red “Irish Brown Reds” that had pea combs. This date, is much later than the initial Asil imports to England, which Mr. H. Atkinson states would’ve been at least around 1760.