Quote:
She looks like a Blue Fawn with penciling on the feathers.
Love the eye stripes!
She looks like a Blue Fawn with penciling on the feathers.
Love the eye stripes!
An interesting Duckling
- Thread starter rollyard
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- #32
- Jan 31, 2010
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Hi Senna95, it has been a while as not so much time these days. Unfortunately some time back I broke the link for my storage site so guess any pics linked to that site have suffered as result. Have uploaded some more including earlier pics & they will follow. Where is Dana these days as some wealth of info is lacking in her absence & do hope she is OK. Following are photos to refresh & show how the nine ducklings turned out as requested.
Father was a Saxony M+/M+, li/li, Bl/Bl, & mother a dark (Li+) Dusky believed to carry hidden one dose of either li or li^h? So m^d/m^d, Li+/li or li^h, bl+/bl+ (no blue).
Father
And mother
I think one of the original photos of first hatched (oldest) duckling in this thread (nine all told)
All ducklings had to inherit li from the drake as he should have been pure for it. The duck phenotypically dark phase so should have had Li+, but believed to be heterozygous for either li or li^h as light ducklings also produced; therefore Li+/li or li^h? All ducklings inherited one dose of blue (Bl/bl+) from the drake & you will see that this varies in intensity, particularly noticable on the speculum.
Some earlier pics-
And as they progressed (a little wet in some as had lots of wet weather)
And as older group (not best pics sorry, & disregard the two saxony ducks in second pic)
And below broken down into the six ducks by colour (two light phase & four dark phase), then the three drakes (one light phase & two dark phase)
Two light females; they should be M+/m^d, li/li or li^h, Bl/bl+, similar to Blue Trouts; white underwing. These had all the M+ markings (including dorsal spots) in duckling photos
There were four dark ducks all much the same as these two & thought to be M+/m^d, Li+/li, Bl/bl+. These had eye-stripes but no dorsal spots in duckling down. Underwing has some pigmentation indicative of m^d breeding, but M+ influence appears to assert more here.
Then three drakes, the first light bird with claret breast, neck ring & white underwing; likely M+/m^d, li/li or li^h, Bl/bl+ (rear bird is a dark dusky drake not of same breeding)
And the two dark drakes, one of which is lighter never-the-less than the other (not sure why?), both with some pigmentation underwing. I have Dave Holderreads latest book & it could be that something like the gene he has descibed as Sooty is @ work, or alternatively some diluting factor @ work? Theoretically M+/m^d, Li+/li, Bl/bl+. You will note that neither has the neck ring, but some claret on bib/breast area breaking through (look to photos above). Conclusion; light &/or harlequin phase genes allow wild-type expression when combined with heterozygous M+/m^d (& pure dusky), while the dark phase allele (pure or impure) inhibits some of the wild-type markings expression in M+/m^d heterozygotes (not facial markings)!
You may also note that bill colour on the darker ducks (females) is gun metal grey, while that on the lighter ducks is yellow/orange? Both parents were tested & bred true/pure for respective dusky & wild-type mallard genes. For females, Dusky appears to extend pigments into the bill (& legs), even in the heterozygote, but in the light phase birds (li/li or li/li^h) melanin deposition (not the carotenoids though) has been inhibited? My thoughts have been that two doses of the gene for dark bill colour are required for melanin deposition to occur in the light/harlequin phase bird as light/harlequin phase influence may be epistatic to that of the gene for solid dark bill colour which Holderread has denoted "Sd". This may explain why we see some Harlequin phase Duskies with light/bills & not the dark bill often/usually associated with the dark duskies? If Sd bred into a strain of light/yellow billed harlequin duskies in pure form (Sd/Sd) would this return their gun metal coloured bill colour? Well, it is just a thought, but worth considering for those breeding Harlequins with other than desired bill colour. The alleles for white & yellow skin/bill (affects Carotenoid deposition) need to be considered also of course!
I hope there aren't too many mistakes in this, but let me know if something doesn't ring true. Will come back for a look @ your birds soon.
Father was a Saxony M+/M+, li/li, Bl/Bl, & mother a dark (Li+) Dusky believed to carry hidden one dose of either li or li^h? So m^d/m^d, Li+/li or li^h, bl+/bl+ (no blue).
Father
And mother
I think one of the original photos of first hatched (oldest) duckling in this thread (nine all told)
All ducklings had to inherit li from the drake as he should have been pure for it. The duck phenotypically dark phase so should have had Li+, but believed to be heterozygous for either li or li^h as light ducklings also produced; therefore Li+/li or li^h? All ducklings inherited one dose of blue (Bl/bl+) from the drake & you will see that this varies in intensity, particularly noticable on the speculum.
Some earlier pics-
And as they progressed (a little wet in some as had lots of wet weather)
And as older group (not best pics sorry, & disregard the two saxony ducks in second pic)
And below broken down into the six ducks by colour (two light phase & four dark phase), then the three drakes (one light phase & two dark phase)
Two light females; they should be M+/m^d, li/li or li^h, Bl/bl+, similar to Blue Trouts; white underwing. These had all the M+ markings (including dorsal spots) in duckling photos
There were four dark ducks all much the same as these two & thought to be M+/m^d, Li+/li, Bl/bl+. These had eye-stripes but no dorsal spots in duckling down. Underwing has some pigmentation indicative of m^d breeding, but M+ influence appears to assert more here.
Then three drakes, the first light bird with claret breast, neck ring & white underwing; likely M+/m^d, li/li or li^h, Bl/bl+ (rear bird is a dark dusky drake not of same breeding)
And the two dark drakes, one of which is lighter never-the-less than the other (not sure why?), both with some pigmentation underwing. I have Dave Holderreads latest book & it could be that something like the gene he has descibed as Sooty is @ work, or alternatively some diluting factor @ work? Theoretically M+/m^d, Li+/li, Bl/bl+. You will note that neither has the neck ring, but some claret on bib/breast area breaking through (look to photos above). Conclusion; light &/or harlequin phase genes allow wild-type expression when combined with heterozygous M+/m^d (& pure dusky), while the dark phase allele (pure or impure) inhibits some of the wild-type markings expression in M+/m^d heterozygotes (not facial markings)!
You may also note that bill colour on the darker ducks (females) is gun metal grey, while that on the lighter ducks is yellow/orange? Both parents were tested & bred true/pure for respective dusky & wild-type mallard genes. For females, Dusky appears to extend pigments into the bill (& legs), even in the heterozygote, but in the light phase birds (li/li or li/li^h) melanin deposition (not the carotenoids though) has been inhibited? My thoughts have been that two doses of the gene for dark bill colour are required for melanin deposition to occur in the light/harlequin phase bird as light/harlequin phase influence may be epistatic to that of the gene for solid dark bill colour which Holderread has denoted "Sd". This may explain why we see some Harlequin phase Duskies with light/bills & not the dark bill often/usually associated with the dark duskies? If Sd bred into a strain of light/yellow billed harlequin duskies in pure form (Sd/Sd) would this return their gun metal coloured bill colour? Well, it is just a thought, but worth considering for those breeding Harlequins with other than desired bill colour. The alleles for white & yellow skin/bill (affects Carotenoid deposition) need to be considered also of course!
I hope there aren't too many mistakes in this, but let me know if something doesn't ring true. Will come back for a look @ your birds soon.
Wow, lots of stuff to think about. This is like a real-life puzzle! Bear with me as I re-cap and try to put my thoughts down here:
1. All of your offspring are M+/md
2. All of them have one blue dilution gene (bl+/Bl)
3. All of them inherited one light phase gene (li) from the saxony drake
4. So the only variable is the phase gene inherited from the hen, which is either dark phase (Li) or an unknown light/harlequin phase (li or li^h)
5. Offspring that are li/li or li/li^h look like blue trouts..... the dusky gene has no influence when they're homozygous for light phase
6. Offspring that have one dark phase and one light phase gene (either Li/li or Li/li^h) show charactaristics of both dusky AND mallard pattern.
It would be interesting to find out if the hen is carrying light phase or harlequin phase. That may make a difference too..... I think.
I'm not even going to get into the bill color. This is enough to make my head spin as it is.
Now I'm even more interested in what will hatch out of my eggs. Here's what I've got separated in 2 different pens:
PEN 1:
One Welsh harlequin drake (md/md, li^h/li^h)
One grey runner hen (M+/M+, Li/Li) (though this line of birds has been known to throw dusky offspring once in a while)
and one dusky saxony runner hen (this one's a bit of a grab-bag... She came from a trout drake who comes from a line that throws duskies every once in a while, and either saxony hen or a white hen who was suspected to be grey underneath..... I suspect she's probably light phase (li/li) with either M+/md or md/md)
Yikes! Too many variables!
PEN 2:
One snowy mallard drake (whom I suspect doesn't carry any dusky)
One grey runner hen (same as above)
One dusky saxony runner hen (same as above)
It'll be obvious which ducklings came from the saxony hens because of the blue genes.
Oh lordy! I hope I can keep track of all of this! Going to be taking lots of pictures and banding all the birds....... and buying LOTS of duck food.
If anyones interested, I can keep you posted.....
1. All of your offspring are M+/md
2. All of them have one blue dilution gene (bl+/Bl)
3. All of them inherited one light phase gene (li) from the saxony drake
4. So the only variable is the phase gene inherited from the hen, which is either dark phase (Li) or an unknown light/harlequin phase (li or li^h)
5. Offspring that are li/li or li/li^h look like blue trouts..... the dusky gene has no influence when they're homozygous for light phase
6. Offspring that have one dark phase and one light phase gene (either Li/li or Li/li^h) show charactaristics of both dusky AND mallard pattern.
It would be interesting to find out if the hen is carrying light phase or harlequin phase. That may make a difference too..... I think.
I'm not even going to get into the bill color. This is enough to make my head spin as it is.
Now I'm even more interested in what will hatch out of my eggs. Here's what I've got separated in 2 different pens:
PEN 1:
One Welsh harlequin drake (md/md, li^h/li^h)
One grey runner hen (M+/M+, Li/Li) (though this line of birds has been known to throw dusky offspring once in a while)
and one dusky saxony runner hen (this one's a bit of a grab-bag... She came from a trout drake who comes from a line that throws duskies every once in a while, and either saxony hen or a white hen who was suspected to be grey underneath..... I suspect she's probably light phase (li/li) with either M+/md or md/md)
Yikes! Too many variables!
PEN 2:
One snowy mallard drake (whom I suspect doesn't carry any dusky)
One grey runner hen (same as above)
One dusky saxony runner hen (same as above)
It'll be obvious which ducklings came from the saxony hens because of the blue genes.
Oh lordy! I hope I can keep track of all of this! Going to be taking lots of pictures and banding all the birds....... and buying LOTS of duck food.
If anyones interested, I can keep you posted.....
Last edited:
- Apr 17, 2011
- 556
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I have baby ducks just like that! With the eye stripe, and the gray. They are black swedish/ buff mix though.
You wrote: "Conclusion; light &/or harlequin phase genes allow wild-type expression when combined with heterozygous M+/m^d (& pure dusky), while the dark phase allele (pure or impure) inhibits some of the wild-type markings expression in M+/m^d heterozygotes (not facial markings)!"
re-reading this, I'm either confused, or I think you may have meant: light &/or harlequin phase genes allow wild-type expression when combined with heterozygous M+/m^d (& pure wild type), while the dark phase allele (pure or impure) inhibits some of the wild-type markings expression in M+/m^d heterozygotes (not facial markings)!
re-reading this, I'm either confused, or I think you may have meant: light &/or harlequin phase genes allow wild-type expression when combined with heterozygous M+/m^d (& pure wild type), while the dark phase allele (pure or impure) inhibits some of the wild-type markings expression in M+/m^d heterozygotes (not facial markings)!
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #36
- Jan 31, 2010
- 250
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Quote:
Now for your earlier post.
Quote:
What a shame you lost your duck. There is quite some variation in Silvers (m^d/m^d, li^h/li^h) as I understand.
Bit of a guessing game, but fun trying. I did some changes but lost it prior to posting so hopefully everything is as it should be
Regards
Now for your earlier post.
Quote:
What a shame you lost your duck. There is quite some variation in Silvers (m^d/m^d, li^h/li^h) as I understand.
Bit of a guessing game, but fun trying. I did some changes but lost it prior to posting so hopefully everything is as it should be
Regards
Thanks Rollyard, now you've confused me even more!
A couple of things I wanted to touch on: first of all, I was mistaken, she does have very faint eyestripes. Hopefully you can see them in these pics.
Secondly, you were right on with the colors of the babies: 2 blue fawns, one grey, one saxony, and then the 2 hens in question.
Thirdly, I hadn't really thought about the black gene because the origional breeder had gotten some blue fawns from this breeding (the white hen x the blue-trout drake), but she didn't mention any black. You'd think that would have shown up in at least some of her ducklings. Since I now have that white hen, maybe I'll cross her to a grey drake to see what I get. Wouldn't the addition of even one (dominant) black gene make all the feathers one solid color? No eye stripes, no white underwing? But then again, maybe not because I once had a black duck with white underwings from a rouen/cayuga cross. Also, I hadn't thought about the brown gene AT ALL. Lord knows I don't need that thrown into the mix.
Lastly, I just wanted you to know that I'm not just ramdomly mixing these ducks. My goal is to get some harlequin or snowy runners (I can't find them here in the states, and I've been looking for several years). And since I saw pictures of the Overbergs, I thought I'd try those as well (on a runner). Their colors are so beautiful! Of course it would probably be easier to use my known saxony and grey ducks with the WH and snowy mallards.
What I was hoping with my unknown hens is that maybe the same thing was going on that you were talking about earlier: M+/m^d Li/li, Bl/Bl. That would account for the white underwing, and the faint eye-stripes. But I'm probably jumping to conclusions.
That said, I think I'll still hatch out a few of the eggs just to see what I get. After all, my first duckling was exactly what I was expecting.
Thanks again for your help and well thought out advise.
PS, I tried to send you a PM, but it says your mailbox is full.
A couple of things I wanted to touch on: first of all, I was mistaken, she does have very faint eyestripes. Hopefully you can see them in these pics.
Secondly, you were right on with the colors of the babies: 2 blue fawns, one grey, one saxony, and then the 2 hens in question.
Thirdly, I hadn't really thought about the black gene because the origional breeder had gotten some blue fawns from this breeding (the white hen x the blue-trout drake), but she didn't mention any black. You'd think that would have shown up in at least some of her ducklings. Since I now have that white hen, maybe I'll cross her to a grey drake to see what I get. Wouldn't the addition of even one (dominant) black gene make all the feathers one solid color? No eye stripes, no white underwing? But then again, maybe not because I once had a black duck with white underwings from a rouen/cayuga cross. Also, I hadn't thought about the brown gene AT ALL. Lord knows I don't need that thrown into the mix.
Lastly, I just wanted you to know that I'm not just ramdomly mixing these ducks. My goal is to get some harlequin or snowy runners (I can't find them here in the states, and I've been looking for several years). And since I saw pictures of the Overbergs, I thought I'd try those as well (on a runner). Their colors are so beautiful! Of course it would probably be easier to use my known saxony and grey ducks with the WH and snowy mallards.
What I was hoping with my unknown hens is that maybe the same thing was going on that you were talking about earlier: M+/m^d Li/li, Bl/Bl. That would account for the white underwing, and the faint eye-stripes. But I'm probably jumping to conclusions.
That said, I think I'll still hatch out a few of the eggs just to see what I get. After all, my first duckling was exactly what I was expecting.
Thanks again for your help and well thought out advise.
PS, I tried to send you a PM, but it says your mailbox is full.
- Jul 4, 2011
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Rouen
- Thread starter
- #39
- Jan 31, 2010
- 250
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Quote:
Hi Senna
I had trouble sending PM last night also & recieved a "full Mailbox" or similar message. Have sorted that out now (I think).
I was going to attempt answering this last night but I was confused by it also (sleep deprived) so thought best to sleep on it. "& pure dusky" was what I had meant to say, but I do think the way I have said it is confusing. Let me put it another way. Wild-type Mallards will have wild-type mallard pattern in both duckling down & adult feather (facial markings, dorsal spots, ventral yellow, white underwing, claret bib, white neck ring, defined speculum etc) as would be expected, regardless of phase genes involved because they are "wild-type mallards" (some exceptions I guess due to pattern not being clearly visible because feather or down generally very light/white?).
But, we don't usually see any of these "wild-type" pattern markings on the dark phase dusky (m^d/m^d, Li+/Li+) do we. No eye-stripes, dorsal spots, neck rings, claret bibs, white underwing, ventral yellow etc, because m^d combined with Li+ does a good job of darkening & extending pigment globally in the bird. However, pure for Dusky genes (m^d/m^d) combined with li/li or li/li^h or li^h/li^h appear to "brighten" & allow expression of some of the pattern traits normally seen in wild-type mallard birds. For eg, harlequin Duskies (m^d/m^d, li^h/li^h) do exhibit white underwing, claret breasts, & white neck rings.
For the M+/m^d ducklings I bred; Li+ appears to have assisted m^d with expressing some dark dusky traits (but not all), whereas, li/li or li/li^h appears to have assited M+ with expressing wild-type traits.
I don't know that this is any clearer?
Hi Senna
I had trouble sending PM last night also & recieved a "full Mailbox" or similar message. Have sorted that out now (I think).
I was going to attempt answering this last night but I was confused by it also (sleep deprived) so thought best to sleep on it. "& pure dusky" was what I had meant to say, but I do think the way I have said it is confusing. Let me put it another way. Wild-type Mallards will have wild-type mallard pattern in both duckling down & adult feather (facial markings, dorsal spots, ventral yellow, white underwing, claret bib, white neck ring, defined speculum etc) as would be expected, regardless of phase genes involved because they are "wild-type mallards" (some exceptions I guess due to pattern not being clearly visible because feather or down generally very light/white?).
But, we don't usually see any of these "wild-type" pattern markings on the dark phase dusky (m^d/m^d, Li+/Li+) do we. No eye-stripes, dorsal spots, neck rings, claret bibs, white underwing, ventral yellow etc, because m^d combined with Li+ does a good job of darkening & extending pigment globally in the bird. However, pure for Dusky genes (m^d/m^d) combined with li/li or li/li^h or li^h/li^h appear to "brighten" & allow expression of some of the pattern traits normally seen in wild-type mallard birds. For eg, harlequin Duskies (m^d/m^d, li^h/li^h) do exhibit white underwing, claret breasts, & white neck rings.
For the M+/m^d ducklings I bred; Li+ appears to have assisted m^d with expressing some dark dusky traits (but not all), whereas, li/li or li/li^h appears to have assited M+ with expressing wild-type traits.
I don't know that this is any clearer?
Quote:
Hi Senna
I had trouble sending PM last night also & recieved a "full Mailbox" or similar message. Have sorted that out now (I think).
I was going to attempt answering this last night but I was confused by it also (sleep deprived) so thought best to sleep on it. "& pure dusky" was what I had meant to say, but I do think the way I have said it is confusing. Let me put it another way. Wild-type Mallards will have wild-type mallard pattern in both duckling down & adult feather (facial markings, dorsal spots, ventral yellow, white underwing, claret bib, white neck ring, defined speculum etc) as would be expected, regardless of phase genes involved because they are "wild-type mallards" (some exceptions I guess due to pattern not being clearly visible because feather or down generally very light/white?).
But, we don't usually see any of these "wild-type" pattern markings on the dark phase dusky (m^d/m^d, Li+/Li+) do we. No eye-stripes, dorsal spots, neck rings, claret bibs, white underwing, ventral yellow etc, because m^d combined with Li+ does a good job of darkening & extending pigment globally in the bird. However, pure for Dusky genes (m^d/m^d) combined with li/li or li/li^h or li^h/li^h appear to "brighten" & allow expression of some of the pattern traits normally seen in wild-type mallard birds. For eg, harlequin Duskies (m^d/m^d, li^h/li^h) do exhibit white underwing, claret breasts, & white neck rings.
For the M+/m^d ducklings I bred; Li+ appears to have assisted m^d with expressing some dark dusky traits (but not all), whereas, li/li or li/li^h appears to have assited M+ with expressing wild-type traits.
I don't know that this is any clearer?
Yes! I didn't realize that you meant a double dose of light phase genes, because a single dose wouldn't allow wild-type mallard pattern. However, you DID cover that in your second part of the statement: "while the dark phase allele (pure or impure)". Sorry, it was late for me last night too.
Hi Senna
I had trouble sending PM last night also & recieved a "full Mailbox" or similar message. Have sorted that out now (I think).
I was going to attempt answering this last night but I was confused by it also (sleep deprived) so thought best to sleep on it. "& pure dusky" was what I had meant to say, but I do think the way I have said it is confusing. Let me put it another way. Wild-type Mallards will have wild-type mallard pattern in both duckling down & adult feather (facial markings, dorsal spots, ventral yellow, white underwing, claret bib, white neck ring, defined speculum etc) as would be expected, regardless of phase genes involved because they are "wild-type mallards" (some exceptions I guess due to pattern not being clearly visible because feather or down generally very light/white?).
But, we don't usually see any of these "wild-type" pattern markings on the dark phase dusky (m^d/m^d, Li+/Li+) do we. No eye-stripes, dorsal spots, neck rings, claret bibs, white underwing, ventral yellow etc, because m^d combined with Li+ does a good job of darkening & extending pigment globally in the bird. However, pure for Dusky genes (m^d/m^d) combined with li/li or li/li^h or li^h/li^h appear to "brighten" & allow expression of some of the pattern traits normally seen in wild-type mallard birds. For eg, harlequin Duskies (m^d/m^d, li^h/li^h) do exhibit white underwing, claret breasts, & white neck rings.
For the M+/m^d ducklings I bred; Li+ appears to have assisted m^d with expressing some dark dusky traits (but not all), whereas, li/li or li/li^h appears to have assited M+ with expressing wild-type traits.
I don't know that this is any clearer?
Yes! I didn't realize that you meant a double dose of light phase genes, because a single dose wouldn't allow wild-type mallard pattern. However, you DID cover that in your second part of the statement: "while the dark phase allele (pure or impure)". Sorry, it was late for me last night too.
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