Quote:
Colossians 4:15
15Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.
All very good points but I'm not quite so sure that's 100% completely accurate. Were the first churches a group of Believers meeting in a house? Yes. The Bible clearly says so. But a house is a building and it does have walls. We see God taking great care to list in detail the building of both the Tabernacle and the Temple. Obviously, God thinks it is significant enough to list those details for a reason. A "church" is a place that is set apart to come and meet with God. Having said that, can one have "church" outside without walls? Certainly. We see that in Scripture as well. By the same token, one can have a meeting of Believers in a home for the purposes of a Bible Study on a continual repeated basis but it never being a church.
With all due love and respect for my sister Speckledhen, there can certainly be "more meat" in the hours spent at a Bible Study but that doesn't mean it was a church. I have certainly had several experiences where I got more "meat" in a two hour Bible Study than I did the previous Sunday service. But I was in God's House on Sunday attending church and on Wednesday I was fellowshipping with the brethren at a Bible Study. A "church" most certainly is much more than just a group of Believers meeting together.
And at the same time one can have a building that is called a church and not be one. The cults may call their building a church but that don't make it one. The same as one who calls themself a Christian but practices lawlessness or denies the basic tenets of the Faith. As I've said many times, I can go stand in the garage, jump up and down all day long and call myself a car - but that don't make me one.
From there I just wanted to say there is a lot of other GREAT comments. Speckledhen, I particularly appreciate your boldness to point out that while it is absolutely true that God is love he is also a lot more. Yes, God is merciful, full of Grace, long suffering, patient, etc. but he is just as much Holy, Righteous, Just, Jealous, vengeful, etc.
I think the crux of the matter is how one defines "If you believe on him and confess him as Lord, then you are a Christ follower." I submit that if one is confessing with their mouth that Jesus is Lord but by their actions denying Him and not following Him - then that person is not a "follower" of Jesus. We must be Doers of the Word and not just Hearers (James 1:22) and if we say we have fellowship with Jesus and walk in darkness then we are lying (1Jn 1:6).
The other issue that comes out of this is how do we be in the world but not of the world and how do we love the sinner but not the sin? I think we must look at Jesus for the example. Jesus Christ would meet anyone, any time, any place BUT He
never left them there. In every single encounter that Jesus ever had with anyone they were changed. Their heart either softened to confession and repentance or it was hardened and they became even more distant from Him. I would challenge anyone to show me an example where Jesus met with a Sinner who chose to continue in that sin and Jesus continued to fellowship with them. I can't think of a single case. The Bible clearly tells us that darkness can have NO fellowship with Light. The Bible tells us that we will be hated, persecuted, and condemned by those who want no part of the Light. If we are truly following Christ then we should expect to be alienated from Unbelievers.
So I take exception to the statement that "Jesus
hung out with sinners, prostitutes, thieves and worse. Jesus most certainly would meet with them but if they chose to remain in their sin, He'd have no more to do with them. "Go and sin no more" was Jesus response.
Jim, you are absolutely correct when you say, "In Truth, only one sin will seperate us from God. Homosexuality is not that sin. Stealing and telling a lie is not it. The only sin that will send anyone to eternal seperation from God is the sin of rejecting Jesus as Lord and Savour." However, I submit that anyone who chooses to remain in a sin and practice that sin - such as homosexuality, lying, drunkedness, etc. - fit into the category of "rejecting" Jesus as "Lord". The Bible is clear, one MUST make a choice. No one can have two Masters. Either sin will be your Master or Jesus will be your Master. You can't have it both ways.
Remember, when it comes to liars, fornicators, homosexuals and the others on the list, the ending words of that verse are "and so were some of you." (1st Cor. 6:11). Remember that we are commanded to go and preach the Gospel and to enter in with anyone who will have us but if they reject us we are to leave and shake the dust from our sandals as a testimony unto them and it will be better for Sodom and Gomorrah on the Day of Judgment for them.
Clearly we are to be about our Father's business and doing those things that we ought for the Kingdom of God. "Hanging out" with the ungodly is not what God had in mind at all. In fact, the most loving thing we can do is point their sin out to them and show them why they need a savior. "Hanging out" with them may to the contrary be a hateful act because it may give them the false impression that their sin is acceptable and tolerable. It may implicitly encourage them to continue in their sin. And that would be a colossal mistake.
This is tantamount to those who are allowing open, practicing homosexuals to continue to profess to be Christian without being challenged on that. And when they are challenged, they go start their own church or go to a denomination that says, "God is love." Or God is full of mercy and grace and is quick to forgive. These are half truths and half truths are full 100% lies. Or that ones sexual "orientation" - a lie in and of itself - or "preference" (a much more accurate term) doesn't define them as a person or define what Faith they choose to follow. Like I said, I can call myself a car and make engine noises all day long but that don't make me one. Wide is the road but narrow is the gate and few shall find it. Believing in Jesus is much more than being able to recite a few basic fundamental truths about who He is. It is placing ones absolutely trust in Him which means surrendering to Him and His ways instead of your own.
Then there is the issue of what "hanging out" with practicing sinners does to the Believer. I'll end with this. I once heard it put this way, "You can't get down and play with the pigs and not get a little mud on you."
We Believers are to abstain from even the appearance of evil. We should be feeding the pigs and trying to clean the pigs up so to speak. And I don't mean to imply that we are the ones who can wash them but rather we ought to be the ones to disciple them towards holiness like a child who starts on the breast milk but graduates to steak and potatoes.
Love the discussion. Y'all are great!
God Bless,
