Anyone tried free range only Cornish Cross (no supplement feed)?

[CSKA]

Has anyone tried to raise those white Cornish Cross (from a certain age forward) strictly on free range? I have 1 acre green pasture, from October to June, got more than 100 fruit trees all fenced (no major predators in the area), raised hundreds of chicken with no problems.

Purpose was to raise some males old enough to breed with heritage without dying of heart failure and not being too heavy to do the job... so would a diet made of foraged greens and bugs keep their weight low enough to not die and being able to do what roosters do with the ladies?

 

[FunClucks]

Lots of posts on here about that topic. Try the search bar for "free range CX" or "free range Cornish Cross" My take is you'd be going against genetics. You can do it, but you really have to work at it, and at some point it's not fair to the chicken for it to be feeling so hungry all the time, since significant food restriction is required so they don't put on all the genetically predisposed weight. You can make them run around, but they really won't want to. Have you raised CX before? They are a different creature to normal chickens. I'd read folks' experiences on here, pick a method, and try it out yourself on your land to see how it works for you, then refine your technique for the next round. I'd start with 10 or 20 chickens, and give it a go for two months, and see how you do with it. CX is supposed to be a terminal cross of 4 different parent lines. One of them at least is dwarfed so they can actually live long enough to lay sufficient eggs to create these terminal cross chicks. It's pretty complicated and specialized genetics.

 

[CSKA]

Lots of posts on here about that topic. Try the search bar for "free range CX" or "free range Cornish Cross" My take is you'd be going against genetics. You can do it, but you really have to work at it, and at some point it's not fair to the chicken for it to be feeling so hungry all the time, since significant food restriction is required so they don't put on all the genetically predisposed weight. You can make them run around, but they really won't want to. Have you raised CX before? They are a different creature to normal chickens. I'd read folks' experiences on here, pick a method, and try it out yourself on your land to see how it works for you, then refine your technique for the next round. I'd start with 10 or 20 chickens, and give it a go for two months, and see how you do with it. CX is supposed to be a terminal cross of 4 different parent lines. One of them at least is dwarfed so they can actually live long enough to lay sufficient eggs to create these terminal cross chicks. It's pretty complicated and specialized genetics.

I have been studying those genetics, the only point would be to have 1 single male CX to fertilize some heritage hens... The second generation, would be just removing all females and any male with the dwarf gene, leaving only 1 male mixed CX for breeder after weeding out the dwarf gene in one or 2 generations.

As for fairness, it is not fair that they can't live past a few months due to heavy weight either... so of course if I noticed the weight dropped below a certain point I would provide some supplement, but not enough to die of "natural" causes like all CXs which are allowed to live for a couple of months. The land is lush green all winter (no snow), got more than a hundred fruit trees of all sorts of fruits which keep dropping all year around. The question is would a male CX live to breed if feed as naturally as possible?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Has anyone tried to raise those white Cornish Cross (from a certain age forward) strictly on free range? I have 1 acre green pasture, from October to June, got more than 100 fruit trees all fenced (no major predators in the area), raised hundreds of chicken with no problems.

Purpose was to raise some males old enough to breed with heritage without dying of heart failure and not being too heavy to do the job... so would a diet made of foraged greens and bugs keep their weight low enough to not die and being able to do what roosters do with the ladies?

I had marginal success keeping a Cx Hen to breeding age by forcing it to free range, supported by commercial feed. Its difficult. As I have said elsewhere, Cx are "not well put together". I had Roos, too, didn't make it as long.

Trying to 100% free range is low success and sub optimal in most of the world. I have a long growing season, more acres (admittedly more birds), and have been working hard on my pasture - and can't completely free range in a more forgiving climate (8a) than most. I can replace about 30% of the expected feed use during late spring to early fall, but I can't cut the feed entire.

 

[CSKA]

I had marginal success keeping a Cx Hen to breeding age by forcing it to free range, supported by commercial feed. Its difficult. As I have said elsewhere, Cx are "not well put together". I had Roos, too, didn't make it as long.

Trying to 100% free range is low success and sub optimal in most of the world. I have a long growing season, more acres (admittedly more birds), and have been working hard on my pasture - and can't completely free range in a more forgiving climate (8a). I can replace about 30% of the expected feed use during late spring to early fall, but I can't cut the feed entire.

what if supplement was only provided if weight was kept within reason? Supplement feed if weight too low, free range only if heavy... or a very small amount of good quality stuff, like a bit of corn, oat and fruits. If manage to keep a male to a max 8 months and he would be healthy enough to fertilize the ladies the job would be done.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

what if supplement was only provided if weight was kept within reason? Supplement feed if weight too low, free range only if heavy... or a very small amount of good quality stuff, like a bit of corn, oat and fruits. If manage to keep a male to a max 8 months and he would be healthy enough to fertilize the ladies the job would be done.

"or a very small amount of good quality stuff, like a bit of corn, oat and fruits" is not "good quality stuff".

You are on the right track, however. When I got serious about this - and my Cx were in a flock with other birds, which likely helped - this is what I did.

I opened the door in the morning and let everyone free range all day. I kept plenty of fresh clean water available. I did NOT put food out.

In the evening before dusk, I walked out with the commercial feed (high protein stuff with good Lys and Met numbers) and fed the flock. Encouraged them to all come "home" to roost, allowed me to get a flock count, check for injuries, etc. Would let them feed till they were disinterested, but not more than 15 minutes, then take the food away.

Repeat. Repeat, Repeat. If the birds start walking away early, feed less the next day. If they are there the full 15 minutes looking for more, offer more the next day.

The Cx learned real quick that it needed to forage if it wanted to eat. But I used a high quality commercial feed to ensure that it got the amino acids and protein amounts that might not be present in my pasture, as well as certain key vitamins.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

For clarity, corn, oats, and fruit all have a potential role to play in making up a chicken's diet, but they are all readily replacable. Corn's primary contribution is a source of carbs/fat, meaning energy. Its not a high protein source, doesn't have a great AA profile, and isnt asource of vitamins you can't get elsewhere. Oats are much the same, but have greater amounts of certain anti-nutritive properties, particularly beta glucans. In both cases, you are trying to control the Cx' energy intake, so it doesn't pack on a lot of fat while ensuring it has enough quality protein to support its body and produce viable offspring. Fruits are mostly water - there are some vitamins there, and plenty of simple sugars - more energy.

Offering what is essentially "scratch" and thinking you are improving on a pasture full of greens is almost certainly a mistake.

 

[CSKA]

For clarity, corn, oats, and fruit all have a potential role to play in making up a chicken's diet, but they are all readily replacable. Corn's primary contribution is a source of carbs/fat, meaning energy. Its not a high protein source, doesn't have a great AA profile, and isnt asource of vitamins you can't get elsewhere. Oats are much the same, but have greater amounts of certain anti-nutritive properties, particularly beta glucans. In both cases, you are trying to control the Cx' energy intake, so it doesn't pack on a lot of fat while ensuring it has enough quality protein to support its body and produce viable offspring. Fruits are mostly water - there are some vitamins there, and plenty of simple sugars - more energy.

Offering what is essentially "scratch" and thinking you are improving on a pasture full of greens is almost certainly a mistake.

Well, please check if I am making sense, my thought was that Cx genetics were selected to obtain massive gains in muscle mass within a short period of time (a champion body builder without even going to the gym). And muscle growth is dependent on protein... While they accumulate some fat, I understood that it is the ridiculous build up of muscle that becomes unsustainable in the long run...

They seem to die because they are so efficient at converting and accumulating food, that muscles out grow cardiac, pulmonary and bone capacity. Also, males can't really do their job (as males) because they become too big and females have their fertility affected as well. So I don't quite understand why it is a good idea to supply this extra protein if the problem is them accumulating too much?

I have spread alfalfa seeds and often oat (to grow high protein green grass for the other birds as well). Bugs and insects they pick have more protein than beef...

So I understand leaving a minimal amount of carbs so they have some energy if and when necessary... but high protein feed seems like moving in the wrong direction. (I do understand upping feed to an extend when its the age to lay eggs)... not so much during growth like between month 2 and 5, since we don't want that growth to become deadly...

Of course I am not talking about starving the bird or create an "anorexia" scenario, but being so efficient at food conversion, I wondering what is the logic of a special high protein diet supply?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

The problem is that all protein isn't the same.

Very few green gowing things (as opposed to their seeds) have a high percentage of protein. The protein they do have is imbalanced. As a percentage of the whole, grasses and grains tent to provide proteins with are low in methionine. Methionine, if you imagine a train, is like the engine in protein synthesis. Without enough methionine, all the other cars (other amino acids) just sit around the yard, unable to form a train.

Meth is key to proper liver function, and is strongly associated with connective tissue - skin, tendons, intestine development, etc. Part of the problem with Cx is that they put on muscle mass before the tendons and skeletal structure have time to bulk up. Ensuring they get plenty of Met helps mitigate.

Next key amino is Lysine. Lysine is associated with muscle development, particularly breast muscle. If you are trying to slow Cx growth while still ensuring a good heart, you want decent amounts of Lys, but not extreme amounts (as seen in many traditional Cx diets). beans and peas are great sources of Lys, so you generally want to avoid these.

Next up, Threonine. Threonine is important to membrane formation, and plays some not well understood roles in the immune system. Again, you want decent amounts.

Next you want to talk phosphorus. The Ca : P ratio is key to bone formation, roughly 2:1. In fact, most metabolic processes (other than egg shell formation) use CA and P in a 2:1 ratio. Unfortunately, chickens almost can't use phytate (that is, plant based) phosphorus.

Here in the US, a "standard" feed is often 16% cp, and keyed towards adult layers, whose dietary requirements (apart from calcium) are about as low as it gets - only rooster maintenance feeds tend to be lower.

and because deficiencies in the formative weeks result in less well put together adults, you desperately want to avoid deficiencies when you are raising your Cx for breeding, while controlling energy intake.

So you look for a high crude protein feed to backstop what they can find in your pasture, and hope you have a lot of bugs. High protein, because its usually a good indicator of higher Methionine numbers. Now that you have a bunch of bags in front of you, look at the Met numbers. Eliminate anything that is only 0.3%. Now look at the Lysine numbers - you don't need, or want, anything at 1.3, 1.1, 0.9. An 0.7 or 08 is just fine for your needs. Check the vitamins and minerals in your remaining bags - they are likely near identical, favor the one with more B vitamins (folate, Niacin, etc). If one seems particularly low, but you otherwise like it, consider adding green to your pasture known to be a good source of said vitamin.

Now read the rest of the label. Chances are, they won't offer mkE numbers, but you want to skim the ingredients. You are looking for a source of phytase - its an enzyme that makes plant based phosphorous more bioavailable. You are also looking for corn and various oils, and the fat number. Given two feeds of identical CP, the one with corn higher on the ingredient list and/or addition of oils is likely higher energy content than the other. You are trying to avoid that.

At this point, you have hopefully realized that nothing is exactly what you are looking for, you are going to have to make some tradeoffs. That's good to recognize. You also don't have a clue what the value of your pasture is. Pick one of the bags. Use it exclusively this season. Take good notes.

Next season, pick the bag you didn't choose. Repeat the experiment. Take good notes.

Now you can start dialing things in.

 

[CSKA]

The problem is that all protein isn't the same.

Very few green gowing things (as opposed to their seeds) have a high percentage of protein. The protein they do have is imbalanced. As a percentage of the whole, grasses and grains tent to provide proteins with are low in methionine. Methionine, if you imagine a train, is like the engine in protein synthesis. Without enough methionine, all the other cars (other amino acids) just sit around the yard, unable to form a train.

Meth is key to proper liver function, and is strongly associated with connective tissue - skin, tendons, intestine development, etc. Part of the problem with Cx is that they put on muscle mass before the tendons and skeletal structure have time to bulk up. Ensuring they get plenty of Met helps mitigate.

Next key amino is Lysine. Lysine is associated with muscle development, particularly breast muscle. If you are trying to slow Cx growth while still ensuring a good heart, you want decent amounts of Lys, but not extreme amounts (as seen in many traditional Cx diets). beans and peas are great sources of Lys, so you generally want to avoid these.

Next up, Threonine. Threonine is important to membrane formation, and plays some not well understood roles in the immune system. Again, you want decent amounts.

Next you want to talk phosphorus. The Ca : P ratio is key to bone formation, roughly 2:1. In fact, most metabolic processes (other than egg shell formation) use CA and P in a 2:1 ratio. Unfortunately, chickens almost can't use phytate (that is, plant based) phosphorus.

Here in the US, a "standard" feed is often 16% cp, and keyed towards adult layers, whose dietary requirements (apart from calcium) are about as low as it gets - only rooster maintenance feeds tend to be lower.

and because deficiencies in the formative weeks result in less well put together adults, you desperately want to avoid deficiencies when you are raising your Cx for breeding, while controlling energy intake.

So you look for a high crude protein feed to backstop what they can find in your pasture, and hope you have a lot of bugs. High protein, because its usually a good indicator of higher Methionine numbers. Now that you have a bunch of bags in front of you, look at the Met numbers. Eliminate anything that is only 0.3%. Now look at the Lysine numbers - you don't need, or want, anything at 1.3, 1.1, 0.9. An 0.7 or 08 is just fine for your needs. Check the vitamins and minerals in your remaining bags - they are likely near identical, favor the one with more B vitamins (folate, Niacin, etc). If one seems particularly low, but you otherwise like it, consider adding green to your pasture known to be a good source of said vitamin.

Now read the rest of the label. Chances are, they won't offer mkE numbers, but you want to skim the ingredients. You are looking for a source of phytase - its an enzyme that makes plant based phosphorous more bioavailable. You are also looking for corn and various oils, and the fat number. Given two feeds of identical CP, the one with corn higher on the ingredient list and/or addition of oils is likely higher energy content than the other. You are trying to avoid that.

At this point, you have hopefully realized that nothing is exactly what you are looking for, you are going to have to make some tradeoffs. That's good to recognize. You also don't have a clue what the value of your pasture is. Pick one of the bags. Use it exclusively this season. Take good notes.

Next season, pick the bag you didn't choose. Repeat the experiment. Take good notes.

Now you can start dialing things in.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

What do you think of adding cooked egg into the mix (I have ridiculous amounts of them)? I read the yolk has some of the best balanced amino-acid levels... would that help with the protein balance, particularly with Methionine?

About phosphorus, I searched and egg whites and wheat bran seem to be good sources of phosphorus, does egg + wheat bran (which is much lower in calories than corn) help with the balance? Is the wheat bran fiber bad?

And adding the egg shell? Does that help or aggravate with the CA/P issue?