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Revelation 22:12 KJV
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 14:7 KJV
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


Conclusion: From these texts and others, it appears that judgment takes place BEFORE Jesus comes, and that it may well be going on in heaven NOW. When He comes, He separates the sheep from the goats (Matt. 25:31-46), the wheat from the tares (Matt. 13:24-30), the just from the unjust (v. 38-42). This could not happen unless a judgment had already taken place.
 
BigBlueHen53 said:
Revelation 22:12 KJV
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 14:7 KJV
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


Conclusion: From these texts and others, it appears that judgment takes place BEFORE Jesus comes, and that it may well be going on in heaven NOW. When He comes, He separates the sheep from the goats (Matt. 25:31-46), the wheat from the tares (Matt. 13:24-30), the just from the unjust (v. 38-42). This could not happen unless a judgment had already taken place.
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The rapture happens first. Then the first seal of the 7 year tribulation is opened. This starts the wrath or judgement of the wicked on earth. Not to be confused with the bema judgement of the church by Jesus in heaven or the great white throne judgement of the wicked dead which is the second death
 

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cubalaya said:
The rapture happens first. Then the first seal of the 7 year tribulation is opened. This starts the wrath or judgement of the wicked on earth. Not to be confused with the bema judgement of the church by Jesus in heaven or the great white throne judgement of the wicked dead which is the second death
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(Sorry I cannot read that chart, it's too small and blurry)

Where does Scripture say a rapture happens first?

Revelation 1:7 KJV
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

2 Peter 3:10 KJV
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Acts 1:10-11 KJV
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The only thing secret about the Lord's return is the day and the hour, which no one knows. Nobody's going to miss it when it happens because 1. EVERY eye shall see Him. 2. The SAME Jesus that went up into heaven shall return - the Jesus they touched and talked to and ate with, shall come in a cloud just as He went up. He does not touch the ground. 3. The ELEMENTS of this world will be BURNED UP - the earth, the water, the vegetation, all the buildings and works of man's hands, even the very air - when He comes. Nothing secret about that! 4. The dead in Christ, in their graves, will be RESURRECTED, and the living saved will be elevated to meet the Lord in the air TOGETHER when He comes. The living wicked will be burned up by the brightness of His coming (2 Thess. 2:8), and as we read in Revelation, they cry out for the rocks to hide them from the face of the Lamb, (Rev. 6:16, 17); and the wicked in their graves miss the whole thing, as they are not resurrected until the end of the 1,000 years (Rev. 20:5). So where are the righteous during the millennium? They "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years," (Rev. 20:4) - in heaven. The earth is a burnt- out wasteland with no one on it but Satan and his angels, chained in darkness with no one to tempt, with dead bodies and no one to mourn them. Rev. 20:3. The righteous come back with Jesus in the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, at the end of the 1,000 years, the wicked are resurrected, the Great White Throne judgment takes place and Satan, his angels the wicked, death and hell (the grave) are cast in the lake of fire and DESTROYED. The lake of fire does not burn for all eternity, but it burns them all up, so that there is nothing left. Mal. 4:1-3. So it can be said that in all God's universe:

Revelation 21:4 KJV
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The wages of sin is DEATH - Rom. 3:23 not eternal life in torment.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not ... what? Should not PERISH - not, "should not suffer eternal torments in an everlasting burning hellfire."

1 John 5:12 KJV
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The wicked, the unsaved, do not have eternal life in hell. They have NO life. They will cease to exist.

Because God is love.
 
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 rapture first . Dont forget Jesus words in John 14 also 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 everlasting torment
 

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Lol, you're going to make me do all the work. Okay.
First, let's ask the Holy Spirit to guide us, because spiritual things are spiritually understood (1 Cor. 2:14), and no Scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20). We need God to lead us into an understanding of His Word.

You referenced the following as evidence that the rapture happens first:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (pre-event, or go before) them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Please note, the Lord comes with a shout and a trumpet, and the dead in their graves rise FIRST, - and THEN, or clearly, AFTER THAT, the living righteous are caught up together with them in the clouds.

This accounts for all the righteous that have ever lived on the earth, or that are alive when Jesus comes. All are removed from the planet and taken away with Him, for He said, in

John 14:1-3 KJV
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

"that He would receive us unto Himself, so that where He is, we may be there also." Where is that? In heaven. You referred me to this text yourself. Clearly, Jesus does not come to be with us on Planet earth at this time; rather He takes us to be with Him. But again, there is nothing secret about this.

Now the main question seems to be, does this happen before or after the tribulation, or time of trouble? Well obviously, after. Because when He comes everything on this planet is burned up, as we saw in 2 Peter 3:10 in my post above. Nobody could survive that. Even the air and water, earth's elements, are burned up. Did you take chemistry? The ELEMENTS are burned up. Oxygen, hydrogen, helium, magnesium - all the elements necessary for human life. Burned up. This earth is desolate and remains so for the millennium. Satan is bound to earth by "chains" he cannot break. He is alone on this planet with no one to tempt, no work of deception, only his guilt and thoughts of his impending destruction for company.

So the question is, Will the righteous go through tribulation? What saith the Lord?

Acts 14:22 KJV
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

John 16:33 KJV
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

But we are not to fear! Our God is with us. He will never leave us nor forsake us. He did not leave Daniel in the lion's den, nor Daniel's friends in the fiery furnace. He did not abandon Jonah in the belly of the fish and He will not abandon us. Read Psalm 91, Psalm 103, Psalm 23. These and many other texts are given to encourage and strengthen us. We are to trust Him. He will carry us through.

I especially like these verses, from Psalm 91:

Psalm 91:4,7 KJV
He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. [7] A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

We will be able to trust Him through those days, as we have learned to trust Him and walk with Him now, today, through our daily challenges, large and small. He can be trusted.

Finally re 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 "everlasting torment." The key verse, and the key words, are:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 KJV
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

It is not the torment that lasts forever. It is the destruction. Not the "destroying," which is a contradiction of terms. Once something is destroyed, it is destroyed forever. It ceases to exist. It can never come back. Suppose a parent said to their child, "I take good care of you. I provide all your needs. I love you. I expect you to love me in return. And if you don't I will burn you, and I won't stop burning you until you do love me." This is nuts! We'd remove the child from the custody of a parent like that and lock the parent up, wouldn't we? Yet we expect people to believe that this is what a loving God will do to His children, for all eternity, for a mere lifetime of making a decision God gave them the option of making!

This is NOT God! This is Satan's thinking, which he attributes to God. It's the #1 reason atheists rejct God - and the Christians who promulgate this hideous doctrine. Yes, the wicked will be burnt up at the end of time. But only long enough to annihilate them. Then, says the Word of God, they will be "as if they had never been ." Obad. 1:16. You shall search for them and not find them.

Psalm 37:10 KJV
For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

The wicked "shall not be." They will cease to exist. Are we to believe that God created something He can't get rid of? That man is inherently immortal? Then why did God say, "in the day you eat of it (the tree of knowledge of good and evil) you shall surely die"? It was Satan who said, "You will not surely die." (Genesis 2:17; 3:4) God... "only has immortality." 1 Tim. 6:16.

Obviously I can't respond to every single text you put up in your chart but I hope this gives you some clarity, or at least some things to consider. We all need to take Paul's word to Timothy to heart:

2 Timothy 2:15 KJV
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Amen.

ETA please pardon any typos. Blame my arthritic fingers.
 
I was with you until ' now the main question'. Since this is a chicken site and we are just here to share scripture, I won't argue with you on the timing of Jesus return, rapture or second coming. The doctrine of the pretrib rapture is sound and those that rightly divide the word of God are ready and like the 5 wise virgins, waiting to go. God has not called us to wrath and the wrath of the lamb starts at seal one. After revelation 4 the church, bride of Christ is safely in heaven. What is the purpose of the great tribulation? Its a time of Jacob's trouble and is aimed at bringing Israel back to God and accepting Jesus as their Messiah. It is also a time for God to destroy the wicked on earth. People will be dying by the millions. Do you honestly believe that Jesus would make His bride go through that? Ok, hopefully you will go back and study but i am done.
 
1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 KJV
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

[3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

[4]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
 

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