Big Bad Mareks

[2ndTink]

Well, here's is another "My flock has Mareks " thread. I just received the necropsy report on Dec 27th so I'm just starting into my Mareks journey, doing a lot of reading, question asking, and freaking out, hoping, planning and scratching plans.

I have a few goals for this thread:
- Chronicle the flocks health going forward
- Receive input from other with Mareks experience
- Lay out my Next Steps (these I'm sure will change as I go! And please feel free to advise on these!)
- Share any previous bird losses that stand out and recieve opinions on if they could have been caused by Mareks, the goal here is to try and determine if I've had Mareks for years or if this is a new thing

First, a quick history of my flock, I'll try to keep it brief and avoid the chicken math rabbit hole side stories. I'll add more details on chicken losses in another post.

2020 - I bought 5 adorable chicks (3 BA, 2 GLW) from the farm store, the GLWs ended up being cockerels, I took them to a chicken swap along with 1 BA who sure looked like a cockerel, a kind man confirmed it was indeed a pullet and I took her back home, along with 4 POL GCs I had arranged to purchase from him and 6 guinea keets that somehow fell into my truck. Through the rest of the summer we purchased another 5 BRs, 1 RIR, a whoops Cornish X. With the exception of the guineas and GCs, all came from local feed stores. As of this post I've lost all 4 GCs (1 to predation), 1 BR (also predation) and just last week lost the RIR, and we processed the CX.

To note, the GCs were never super robust and healthy seeming, some days they seemed fine, others I'd think one was fading, but they'd turn around and start looking fine again. One would spend a week or so a little lethargic seeming, then perk back up. They had been raised in a huge poultry house, mayne 10,000 at a time, trimmed beaks and all that. I lost on that fall to a bald eagle (I have mixed feelings on this, I loved my chicken and was so upset to lose her, but bald eagles are also just amazing to watch and I feel like I contributed to the species...)

2021 - We weren't going to get more chicks, but somehow ended up with I think it was 13... a mix of EE's, BR's, RIR's, and BA's, all from the feed store that buys from Mt Healthy Hatchery, we've lost 1 EE, 1 BR, 1 RIR.

2022 - we bought no chickens!?! Craziness!

2023 - we weren't going to buy chicks, but I had an insistent BA broody so we broke down and bought her chicks, which freaked her out and broke her from being broody, so we raised 5 GLW's, 2 EE's, and 4 white silkies from TSC. No losses to date! The silkies just totally won me over so I bought eggs and hatched out 16 more, then when they were about 12 weeks old I bought 3 more chicks from the same breeder about the same age.

I don't know for sure if all the hatchery chicks were vaccinated for Mareks or not, but I know my home hatched silkies were not. I had a sikkie decline quickly in early Nov so we put her down, she was tiny, half the size of the others her age so I assumed it was a developmental issue / failure to thrive. At the end of Nov I had another silkie pullet start acting off balance, I dumped vitamins into her thinking it was a vitamin deficiency but she just slowly got worse. We culled her on Dec 10th and took her to the state lab for a necropsy on the 11th. Unfortunately, I had set eggs just after Thanksgiving, and I brought home 9 more silkie chicks from an NPIP cert breeder as well. I now have 10 chicks 1 to 2 weeks old (staggered hatch), so I have 19 chicks brooding in the house, unvacvinated.

Next Step:
Tomorrow all 19 chicks in the house are getting vaccinated. Yes, I know this may not 100% be effective, but if there's a chance it might help them, it's worth it.
- anyone have experience with vaccinating late?

 

[TwoCrows]

My heart breaks for you Tink, we humans involve ourselves with creatures seeking comfort for our life's journey, animals are known to have effects on our pleasure sensors and improve our lives emotionally and physically. But when they become the ones that need the comforting, tables turn and we have to be the ones to heal them, it's draining on our already stressed lives. It's heart wrenching to watch our babies deteriorate and even die with disease. I have never dealt with Mareks in my flocks so I can't offer much in the way of Mareks knowledge. But if you don't mind my rambling thoughts, I can certainly offer emotional support as I certainly have dealt with my share of chicken illness and losses over my chicken keeping times. Our path in life can take us on many roads, some rough, some smooth as glass. There is no greater gift you can give yourself than learning, knowing more today than you did yesterday. And this Mareks journey will not only offer you the opportunity to be the best steward to your flocks, help then live healthier longer lives, but it gives you the opportunity to learn so much about the lives of your birds, what makes them tick, maybe allow you to understand what it's like to be a chicken. As scary as this Mareks sounds, you have the opportunity to really expand your poultry horizons. Maybe help you live in the moment, take one day at a time, case by case, bird by bird and I am sure at some point on down the line, this will all smooth out. Hopefully you won't view this as impossible mountains to climb but a few small hills or bumps in the road that are part of the journey. You can do it Tink, you are a strong gal! ❤

 

[microchick]

From people I have spoke with that have marked their mixed breeds seem to do best. I pm’d @microchick when I first learned I had Marek’s, she has dealt with it for years. She has Egyptian fayoumis . From my understanding hers has done really well and she has bred them with her resistant Amish birds.

I really wanted to do the fayoumis however I cannot let my birds free range due to a lot of cats in the area that are feral and they do not do well at all in a non free range environment.

Thank you for mentioning me Bkaye.

Regarding the Egyptian Fayoumi birds. If you have a roomy run, they will do fine. I don't free range my birds. I tried to free range my bachelor roosters two years in a row. First year I lost a lot of them to predators. The ones who got some 'smarts' about them concerning predators I let out this spring and lost 3 of them to a fox. That was enough for me with the venture into free ranging.

If you have a roomy run, make sure that you cover it or clip wing feathers because EFs are strong fliers and the grass on the other side of the fence is just too tempting. Mine will even study the net for holes and fly up through the netting in order to escape. What's funnier is they remember where their escape point and will head back for it when caught.

Dumb they are not.

 

[Debbie292d]

My understanding is that chickens of any age could be vaccinated for Marek's, but it's not as effective on adult birds as it is for chicks, which it's intended for.

I'm honestly considering doing the same thing here but I'd also want to vaccinate my older ones as well whether it isn't very effective or not.

I am so sorry you're having to deal with this though. My heart goes out to you!

 

[2ndTink]

Continuing to think through were the Mareks could have come from.

We live in a heavy poultry area, there are at least 3 poultry house in a 2 mile radius, going to 5 miles, I'd have to count on Google maps but it's probably several more. They do turkeys and broilers 10k to 30k at least at a time, and there's some layers that keep a couple hundred birds. I have neighbors within a mile with chickens a well.

Then there's going to the feed store or anywhere else off our property. I have specific chore boots and coats, but I don't do full hazmat decontaminations..

I spoke with the state vet and he said what I've read, Mareks is very common. If read about Mareks in the past with the thought "I hope I never have to deal with that" and I've been re-reading everything like crazy the last few days. There is a lot of doom and gloom information out there but when I spoke to a local breeder that has been super wonderful, answering all my questions about breeding chickens, they acted like it was no big deal, just vaccinate and you're good to go. I remembered I had been in contact with another silkie breeder out of state to get hatching eggs and they said they could start collecting for me right after Christmas, I didn't want to disappear on them so shot them a note that my flock was diagnosed with Mareks so I wouldn't be getting hatching eggs anytime soon but I was going to see how things go and maybe test hatch and vaccinate some local eggs and see how things go. I was expecting and "oh my gosh, yeah you're screwed, you're done with chickens" response, instead I got another, vaccinate and all is good response. This gives me hope for future hatches, my dreams are not squashed, yet are simply needing to be vaccinated

I expect to have more losses, I hope not, but I'm bracing myself for it. At this point I don't expect an issue with my older laying hens, my biggest risk will be my silkies I hatched in July, I'm really attached to them so this will be a very hard journey ahead. My next risk is the chicks I have brooding inside, but I am hopeful the vaccine will do its wonders!

None of the birds currently on my property will be allowed to leave, they will be lifers. I'm going to set up a new coop and runs to put the chicks from the house in, I know the virus is all over the property, but, this will give them a lower viral load to deal with compared to going in were the other chickens were.

Today is vaccination day! And possibly "spend a lot of money on a big shed to turn into a coop" day.

 

[2ndTink]

We vaccinated the 30 silkies and silkie crosses this AM, it was pretty smooth, and I'm satisfied that we'll have no issues vaccinating newly hatched chicks in the future! The smallest chicks did some head shaking and mad peeping after releasing them back in the brooder. The oldest birds seemed completely unphased.

I've been keeping an eye on them all afternoon but they don't seem any worse for the experience.

 

[TwoCrows]

Happy New Year Tink and all others following along in this thread! Let's keep a positive attitude with all our struggles and hope that 2024 is better than 2023!

 

[TwoCrows]

I like to suggest to all of you that have Mareks in your flocks to use pro and preboitics on your flock. 70% of the immune system lives in the gut and will not only be responsible for keeping this monster at bay but will aid this system to keep vital proteins and hormones to function for healthy brain, muscle and tissue responses to inflamation and other negative side effects to the body from the Mareks.

I wouldn't go overboard with probiotics, more is not better, but a steady low dose continuing to flow into the body will keep the immune system functioning as well as possible. All probiotics are the same for humans, cats, dogs, etc.... Try and use a probiotic with many strains in it for the best results. Ginger is a wonderful prebiotic, it feeds the probiotics. As we all know its' a wonderful herb to help with nausea and appetite but it also helps with digestion. It helps the intestinal tract to better absorb nutrients, and creates healthy digestive juices. Chickens are known to have fast moving waste systems and many nutrients go unabsorbed even in healthy birds. I use ginger on all sick birds, it makes a big difference in how they feel. You can grate a bit over some warm oatmeal or grits, dust their feed with a bit of it, it doesn't take a whole lot, a pinch is wonderful. If you can get a hold of Dandilion greens, they are super high in prebiotics, have wonderful trace minerals. Dandelions act as a wonderful blood detox and regular feeding is thought to help control internal parasites in your flock. They stimulate the digestive tract and are a wonderful addition to your flock's diet to improve their intestinal health.

 

[2ndTink]

My understanding is that chickens of any age could be vaccinated for Marek's, but it's not as effective on adult birds as it is for chicks, which it's intended for.

I'm honestly considering doing the same thing here but I'd also want to vaccinate my older ones as well whether it isn't very effective or not.

I am so sorry you're having to deal with this though. My heart goes out to you!

Yes, I forgot to add that we will vaccinate the 5 month old silkies as well! I'm not sure about the one showing symptoms though, I don't know if it would do any good for her, she would already have tumors growing around her nerves

Because of what I'm going through, I would highly recommend vaccinating! This isn't based on fact or science, but my gut reaction that anything that might lower the chances of you dealing with Mareks is worth it.

 

[TwoCrows]

I wanted to post some of my flocks odd health issues and see if anyone can identify these as possible Mareks symptoms, or just random unrelated events. Again, I'm not 100% sure my feed store chicks have been vaccinated or not.

Odd egg shells and early decrease in production: "The Littles" - 3 BRs I purchased together in the summer of 2020 and were housed together for their first 3 years before being added to "The Meeps" (the original BAs and GCs) this summer as I had lost a few Meeps and had room to move them over to leave The Littles coop for my pullets this spring. When they first started laying, all the eggs were normal, a few months in one of them had some lash material they passed in the run, and for a month or two I always cracked their eggs one at a time into a bowl first as occasionally there would be a small amount of lash material in the egg. I had no idea which chicken it was, no symptoms I could see by watching them so I didn't do any specific treatment, the lash issue stopped and I've never seen it again. A few months into laying one started producing thinner shelled eggs with bumps, I think I may have posted about that on here, and I asked a lot of people locally with no good answer. One by one the other two BRs in that coop started producing the same thin shelled, bumpy, eggs. All my chickens (around 30 birds) are on the exact same feed, these 3 were the only ones with the issue. The first year after they molted and restarted laying the shells were back to normal, then again, one by one they got thin and bumpy. These eggs are porous and don't stay fresh very long, if you float test them in water they will stand up and then float much "fresher" than all the other eggs. They also have free choice oyster shall along with the layer pellets, no impact. In their second year, I typically only got one egg per day from the 3 hens, this year (their third year) I got one per day until late spring then egg production drastically reduced to maybe 2 per month. They are 3 1/2 yr old free loaders, but look very healthy, nothing to note externally.

Bad cocci infection, poor health for 1 1/2 yrs, seems fine now: "The Beeps" purchased spring of 2021, a mix of EEs, RIRs, BAs, and BRs. One BA named Starki had hyperkeratosis on her feet as a chick, I treated them and they got a bit better, she then introduced me to cocci for the first time, a late night trip to TSC for some Corid, she responded to treatment but as soon as I'd stop she'd just crash again. I dosed the whole flock through the waterer but I had to straight dose Starki several times over a month or two. That first summer I'd think she was going to die almost every day. One day she'd seem ok, the next she'd lay with her neck stretched out in front of her with her eyes closed or slowly walk with her eyes closed until she'd bump the run fence and turn and keep slow walking around. It was a complete health roller coaster her first year and a half. I found that if I kept electrolytes in the water she did well, if I left them out for a day or two, she'd start closing her eyes, slow walking around, or laying with her neck stretch out in front of her. She matured late, she was crazy pale. It was a stressful summer always expecting to come out to her being dead. Last summer and this summer, she's perfectly normal, she's got a narrow head with kinda sunken eyes and a huge body, she's not a "pretty chicken", but she does look healthy now. She still has thickened spots on her feet from the hyperkeratosis but it doesn't seem to bother her.

Early decreased egg production? I have been blaming this on them being hatchery birds, my 3 yr old chickens this summer all but stopped laying except for mt 3 BAs, they are laying champs, from the 3 I'd get an average of at least 2 per day, maybe more. The BRs totally tapered off and stopped, the GCs stopped laying and died, of my 2 yr olds the brown egg layers really slowed down but I have so many of them and I don't know who's laying what, the EEs are laying great still. Mareks or genetics?

I thought I had more odd health things, but I'm realizing the other ones with oddities have passed so I'll capture them in another post.

Mareks is going to suppress the immune system of the bird, effecting all the markers that keep disease, inflammation and parasites at bay. I read on line that Mareks does have a direct link to Coccidiosis and other parasite over population, egg laying issues, respiratory problems, over all health of the bird. I told you earlier about the MS in my flock, I first started noticing strange issues that I just couldn't link to anything.... birds turned up with light cases of bacterial infections, Coccidiosis was a constant problem, thin shelled eggs, laying less frequently, skin on the foot pads became very thin, almost yellow (a sign of Vitamin A deficiency) combs weren't waxy and bright, runny noses, birds weren't eating enough, ect... just light weight illness that didn't necessarily effect their day to day activities and happiness, but enough to look off, just not thriving like they should. So I would imagine that any bird in your flock that is starting to appear "off" in any area of their bodily and daily functions, this may be a bird showing the beginnings of the virus doing what it does. And this particular bird needs to be watched.