Black Appleyard duckling - pic post 7

I've gotten Appleyards from Holderreads that had dark phase colors, but never anything that comes black. The duckling with the facial stripes is NOT a pure Appleyard color either. Was there an oddball drake around your hens even a month or two before the eggs were set? From what I read they can hold sperm at least a month. I put up Saxony eggs from pure stock this spring and one of them is not the proper color either, she completely lacks the facial stripes a Saxony is supposed to have. I'm at a loss regarding Appleyards myself. The first pair I got years ago from the Holderreads were perfectly colored, gorgeous birds. I got some later and most of them were a darker color that wasn't what I expected, but still Appleyard pattern. I've read since then that they can come darker. Their offspring were about 3/4 dark Appleyard. If you have questions about the color and what you got from them, I would email Dave, he answered some questions for me and was quite helpful - but expect it to take a while, he is very busy.

Also, it is possible for Mallard derivative breeds to mutate colors, that is where all the breeds we have today came from.

Did you buy day olds? Or did you set eggs from pure stock? From your description you bought pure day olds and have no other ducks, set eggs when they grew up and ended up with these oddball colors? Do you have any other ducks at all? Of the three pictured, only the one on the bottom has the distinctive light body and black stripe on the head that I would expect from an Appleyard.

This was my first Silver Appleyard:

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There are three Silver Appleyard babies (one week old) in the front of this photo, with a Saxony on the right and some other breeds in the back:

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I'm not really sure what to think, but I don't see solid colors or black or wild type as genetics that should be showing up in your ducklings. The Appleyard color is the wild type, except that they have two dominant Restricted pattern genes at the "m" locus (Mallards have two recessives there) that whitens the surface of the wing fronts and slightly lighten overall plumage. (I assume that one of my Appleyards had only one dominant restrictive pattern gene and threw the darker color). They also have two recessives at the "l" locus that cause them to be "Light Phase" instead of "Dark Phase". Dark Phase is the wild Mallard type there. The Light Phase moderately lightens plumage: in drakes it extends claretn onto soulders and sides; sometimes enlarges neck ring. (This is from "Storey's Guide to Raising Ducks".)

Extended black - which extends black through each feather - is incompletely dominant. For you to have a fully black duckling, it would have to get this from both parents and both parents would show some affect of this gene in their own coloring. So, two Silver Appleyards that look like Silver Appleyards could not throw a black duckling, unless it were a mutation that affected BOTH genes at the "e" location. I don't think a Silver Appleyard bred to a black duck would throw a completely black offspring either. The only guess I have is that somehow somebody got to the girls and you just don't know how or who.

As I said, they can hold sperm for as long as a month without much trouble and maybe up to two months. I read on a forum about a gal whose chickens haven't had a rooster in with them for two months and they are still laying fertile eggs!

I hope this helps you a bit.
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I told myself I wasn't going to touch this thread..... but here I am:

First my disclaimer: I'm just a duck hobbyist, and NOT an expert, and here's what I THINK:

To poster FLchickens: What a cool looking duck. He looks so SERIOUS! The pattern looks appleyard, you may just have a dark-phase appleyard (Li+/Li+ or Li+/li instead of the usual li/li). I'm not sure how this would have happened because it should have shown up at least to some extent in the parents.

crperdue: yours is a little more odd. You have for sure M^r (restricted mallard) and M+ (wild type mallard), and possibly dusky (M^d). According to "Colour Breeding in Domestic Ducks" by the Ashtons, Appleyards are infamous for not having pure gene-pools. Apparently all 3 types (restricted, wild, and dusky) can all occasionally be found in appleyards. As can dark-phase (Li rather than li), as in FLChicken's duck.

If your birds are truely separated, and there is NO possibility of another drake, or another hen laying eggs in or near the nest, then you have 2 adults (one male and one female) that carry the wild-type pattern. This would show up in the adult parents: they would have grayish wing coverts instead of light silver. Sometimes these little differences are hard to spot if you don't know what to look for. This duckling should grow up to look like a regular mallard (or rouen), but in light phase (look up Rouen Claire, or trout). However, he looks pretty dark, and may aso have Li, in which case he'd look like a regular wild mallard (color-wise).

Dusky is also a possibility for the dark duckling. Again, dusky is recessive and would probably not show in the parents. Duskies are born solid, dark colored. Like I said, I had a pair of trouts that threw a light-phase dusky once.

Holderread's has excelent birds. I think that some of these "problems" are just indicitive of the Appleyard breed and color. I immagine that they have some odd-colored duckling that they hatch themselves, they just don't ever send them out. If you want a cut-and-dry color you only have one option: WHITE. With white you're only dealing with one recessive gene, and even when you out-breed for body-type, you can get the white back in the next generation. This is probably why white birds win at so many shows: the breeders only have to worry and breed for body-type, and they don't have to worry about color, pattern, and a whole host of other color related genes in addition to body-type. But where's the fun in that???
 
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Appleyards as previously mentioned are light phase restricted mallards. The restricted mallard gene (M^R) is reportedly dominant over its alleles (M+ & m^d), & was called "restricted mallard" largely due to melanin restricting action in duckling down. That is why very young pure bred Appleyard ducklings are ususally yellow-ish with only the "mohawk" & tail showing dark pigmentation. As the ducklings age dark pigments do come through as is evident in some older Appleyard ducklings pictured in this thread. There is no sex-linked colour gene involvement with these birds, so both male & female duckling down should present the same, ie, yellow-ish duckling with dark stripe on head & sooty tail. As they get older feather differences will be noted between the sexes. But I have never heard/seen anything reported whereby male Appleyard ducklings "colour up" earlier than their female counterparts?

crperdue, I think Senna95 has discussed very nicely your three ducklings pictured; the yellow-ish bird with the mohawk is fairly typical of both male & female light-phase restricted mallards (Appleyards) @ that age but the yellow downed areas will "colour-up" as they get older. The darker duckling with yellow dorsal spots, facial markings & ventral yellow (camouflage pattern) looks very much like a wild-type mallard. The all dark duckling looks dark dusky maybe, but certainly not restricted mallard. If the wild-type is male then it is by chance & not a distinguishing feature between Appleyard duckling sexes. I would never begin to suggest that you have been knowingly decieved, particularly by someone as well known as Holderread who has a wonderful reputation to consider. GrannyCarol has asked lots of good questions so won't repeat.

FLChickens, I can see some Appleyard looking ducklings exhibiting mohawk head stripe & with down darkening as they get older. The darker duckling isn't typically wild-type (eg, no dorsal spots evident?) for me. Senna95 comments well worth considering. It would be interesting to see if he/she has any white on wing fronts as gets older (indicative of M^R in adults dark phase birds)! Just one rebel gene/allele can make all of the difference.

Best of luck with them
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I had one other thought, if you hatched these eggs from pure Appleyard parents.... is there any chance someone played a joke on you and put some other eggs in the incubator? It's not even that two ducks with the Appleyard phenotype would be able to throw a black, they would show the rogue gene, its not a recessive, but incomplete dominant. I'm thinking the question is - how did you get an egg from some other ducks, or how did some other drake breed your hens? If it's dusky, still highly unlikely (I'd have to look it all up again for the dusky genetics).

Another thing, which I think you've been careful of, is not to run down a breeder on a public forum. The internet is not benign. My policy, if I have something negative to say about my experience with a breeder (or hatchery) is to allow people to ask me privately who it is and keep the public posts anonymous. Just a thought.
 
Senna, thanks for the posting. We started letting them free range yesterday while we are out building a quail pen. Will try and take new photos of him and the others that are growing out. These are our first flock of large ducks to hatch and raise out. I have love watching the call duck hatch and change as they feather out, so these will be fun to watch as well.
 
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Day-old show quality stock from Holderread which has now reached adulthood and produced the ducklings in the picture.

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About 75 ducks, over 500 total of various poultry. But the appleyards are in a separate facility with no other ducks. Incubation and brooding is separate as well.

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Not a chance

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I mention where the parents are from not to disparage the breeder but to show that I have complete confidence in the source of these birds. I have not, nor do I ever intend, to say anything negative about anyone.

What I do not have confidence in is my understanding of the genetics in ducks, specifically appleyards. Anyone feel like making a "duck calculator"?
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I have gotten some great information posted in response to this topic and I am very thankful to all those who took the time to participate.

I will be posting more photos as these ducks grow up.
 
I understand... it is very perplexing, though some of the responses that indicate that the Appleyard gene pool in general has some oddities was helpful. I haven't had many Appleyards, but I have had variance in color that I thought was odd. Not as extreme as black or dark dusky like that one duckling. The wild colored one I can see as possible, if both parents had one wild type gene and one restricted gene. I love the breed, I am not as expert in experience as you are, just trying to help figure out the genetics, a hobby of mine. I'd sure email Dave Holderread and ask him what shows up sometimes and what causes it, if he knows. I'm pretty sure we don't know everything and mutations do happen.
 
Man, I'm not even close to understanding ducks genetics yet so I appreciate all the help.

I have sent an email to Holderread so maybe he can help shed some light on this. If he does
reply I will post that info here as well.
 

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