Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[Debbi]

Quote:
*gack* I really don't like the straw look. I wouldn't want to pass on that color even if it weren't against the standard. It's just downright ugly, in my opinion. snowbird has mentioned crossing a light colored BCM with mahogany birds, so does that mean more of a gold (warm yellow) color rather than (what I think of as) a straw (cool yellow)?

Here it is, sometimes a photographic memory comes in handy... (hubby still hates it, though

)
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=4661082#p4661082

I agree. I would never use a roo that was straw colored int he hackles. In my program, my foundation roo has lighter copper hackle tips and I use him over girls that have way too little copper. The female progeny all seem to have a nice balance. The variation I am seeing is in the cockerels. A few are coppering out just like their father, which is on the lighter side of copper but still acceptable, some are the ideal copper and I think I may end up with 1 over-melanized bird.

I should note that my foundation roo is only just over a year old so he hasnt molted. I am curious to see if that copper darkens with molt.

VC--I am super interested to see if your theory of hackle/saddle stripes help in producing a property colored bird. I totally agree about compensatory breeding; it would be nice to have stock that breeds true.

Bravo, Sorry, can't seem to get the pullets to stand still for any decent shots! The boys are hams, the girls, not so much. I too would like to see Pip's hackles after he finally molts. I wonder too, if the girls will produce any kind of color in either their cockerel or pullet chicks. The three of them came from very nicely colored parents, yet they all came out over melanized. Here's to hoping! Day 19 here for my first batch of my own. We shall see...

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
I agree. I would never use a roo that was straw colored int he hackles. In my program, my foundation roo has lighter copper hackle tips and I use him over girls that have way too little copper. The female progeny all seem to have a nice balance. The variation I am seeing is in the cockerels. A few are coppering out just like their father, which is on the lighter side of copper but still acceptable, some are the ideal copper and I think I may end up with 1 over-melanized bird.

I should note that my foundation roo is only just over a year old so he hasnt molted. I am curious to see if that copper darkens with molt.

VC--I am super interested to see if your theory of hackle/saddle stripes help in producing a property colored bird. I totally agree about compensatory breeding; it would be nice to have stock that breeds true.

Bravo, Sorry, can't seem to get the pullets to stand still for any decent shots! The boys are hams, the girls, not so much. I too would like to see Pip's hackles after he finally molts. I wonder too, if the girls will produce any kind of color in either their cockerel or pullet chicks. The three of them came from very nicely colored parents, yet they all came out over melanized. Here's to hoping! Day 19 here for my first batch of my own. We shall see...

Would be interested in seeing what everyone is calling straw colored. The Golden Yellow we see on the hackles is not straw colored. Straw colored is a lighter color and is not bright and shiney.

I wish I had a good type straw colored hackle BC male and I sure would breed to some of my female. What is the difference in breeding a straw colored and a Mahogany colored male ? I think we are getting carried away with a lot of misinformation. Before culling the non SOP males and females do a single mating and see what they produce. One thing for sure is if you are breeding BC you will get Copper, wheat and mahogany from the same matings , always have and always will. Don

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
I would like to have a wheat colored female with type like the center female has, very nice female Jan. Don

 

[birdygirl123]

I have two that are right at 7/8 weeks, .. A roo and a hen.. FBCM.. I havent posted pics of them yet. The pics didnt turn out very well. I'll get some good ones today.

Quote:

 

[Debbi]

Quote:
Bravo, Sorry, can't seem to get the pullets to stand still for any decent shots! The boys are hams, the girls, not so much. I too would like to see Pip's hackles after he finally molts. I wonder too, if the girls will produce any kind of color in either their cockerel or pullet chicks. The three of them came from very nicely colored parents, yet they all came out over melanized. Here's to hoping! Day 19 here for my first batch of my own. We shall see...

Would be interested in seeing what everyone is calling straw colored. The Golden Yellow we see on the hackles is not straw colored. Straw colored is a lighter color and is not bright and shiney.

I wish I had a good type straw colored hackle BC male and I sure would breed to some of my female. What is the difference in breeding a straw colored and a Mahogany colored male ? I think we are getting carried away with a lot of misinformation. Before culling the non SOP males and females do a single mating and see what they produce. One thing for sure is if you are breeding BC you will get Copper, wheat and mahogany from the same matings , always have and always will. Don



That's what I've been telling myself with Pip. Things he shows, I really don't care for, but bred to my pullets with the opposite traits, this little voice in the back of my head tells me to try it. As for getting all three colors of hackles, you would know because of the sheer numbers you produce, if nothing else. I can see where that would happen with the larger hatches. I have right now, mahogany, copper/light, proper coppering (in my blue copper cockerel), but have yet to have one with the straw coloring. That said, I've only had 5 hatches, and they all had the same color type in each hatch, one hatch mahogany, one normal, one lighter, etc. I need to get a bigger bator to hatch out a few huge clutches! Oh Lord, give me strength!

Thanks Don

 

[Bravo]

Quote:
I know how that goes! They always seem to avoid the shot, dont they? I feel like any photo I get of my girls is always blurry because they are running away from the photo!

I cant wait to see your babies!! Post LOTS of pics!

If you have the room I say keep him and try it out. What do you have to loose? The benefit of breeding chickens is that we can eat our mistakes

Don, right now I don't have the room to to have experimental pens but I did I would probably try. For me, I am trying to do this on a low scale and trying to breed a nice bird for my enjoyment only. Maybe even breed one that I can show. I started out with a foundation flock and now with all of their progeny I am only keeping those closest to the standard and culling the rest.

Coming from the dog world into this, I take on the approach that I would never breed a dog with a fault that could be DQ'ed and apply that same mentality to my chickens. I guess I just wonder if the reason that this breed does have so much variation is because of reintroduction of certain faults and "compensatory" breeding like Village Chicken mentioned.

When it comes to chickens, I will be the first to admit that I am as green as they get. I am still learning SO much about bird genetics, standards and bloodlines and I feel as if I have only scraped the tip of the iceberg. Every hatch I feel as if I am learning more. Don, you and several others on this thread are some of the most knowledgeable Marans people and I find your posts very educational.

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
I know how that goes! They always seem to avoid the shot, dont they? I feel like any photo I get of my girls is always blurry because they are running away from the photo!

I cant wait to see your babies!! Post LOTS of pics!

If you have the room I say keep him and try it out. What do you have to loose? The benefit of breeding chickens is that we can eat our mistakes

Don, right now I don't have the room to to have experimental pens but I did I would probably try. For me, I am trying to do this on a low scale and trying to breed a nice bird for my enjoyment only. Maybe even breed one that I can show. I started out with a foundation flock and now with all of their progeny I am only keeping those closest to the standard and culling the rest.

Coming from the dog world into this, I take on the approach that I would never breed a dog with a fault that could be DQ'ed and apply that same mentality to my chickens. I guess I just wonder if the reason that this breed does have so much variation is because of reintroduction of certain faults and "compensatory" breeding like Village Chicken mentioned.

When it comes to chickens, I will be the first to admit that I am as green as they get. I am still learning SO much about bird genetics, standards and bloodlines and I feel as if I have only scraped the tip of the iceberg. Every hatch I feel as if I am learning more. Don, you and several others on this thread are some of the most knowledgeable Marans people and I find your posts very educational.

Bravo, Just like in dogs breeding chickens you have to try and equalize everything when mating. Breeding two if it were possible Marans that were perfect would more then likely produce SOP Marans. The reason for single matings is to eliminate Marans that are producing Marans that are not acceptable.

What I am going to say is not a knock on the Dark egg people but is just the way things have been done in the past, Type and breed characteristics were ignore with the developing of the darkest egg possible. Eventually we will see more typey Marans as people start breeding for the SOP. When we go into a show the judge could care less how dark of an egg the female lays.

Everyone should do what makes you happy and enjoy your Marans. Don

 

[Bravo]

Quote:
Thanks Don. I think I understand your point. There have been a lot of mediocre dogs (still good enough to finish their championships) that have been some of the best producers in the breed--producing dogs that are FAR superior to them. I think this the bottom line, right? I guess it is all a balance

Hopefully the breed can maintain both good conformation and egg color. I would really hate to see those two traits diverge as this breed develops over the next several years. To me, that dark, beautiful egg is what sets this breed apart from the rest. I think it is going to be a challenge but is still possible

 

[VillageChicken]

I believe I am seeing roosters with and without hackle stripe. The website admin for the MOAC has a personal website (little peddler) with an import bird that has minimal hackle stripe or saddle stripe. Compared to her old Wade Jeane rooster on the same site, there is a huge difference.

There's a shot of a rooster from Monique's birds at the Bethel Farms website with a similar roo with minimal hackle stripe, and we know she's got really good hens.

There are Brahma breeders that obsess about hackle and cape coloring, especially in buff columbians. Certain melanizers have different affects on hackle color or striping. These same melanizers may act differently on hens. In Vorwerk/Lakenvelders, breeders MUST select a rooster with very good SADDLE color to produce a hen with the right HACKLE color. What if we are missing similar correlations in our BCM?

So what if the hackle stripe were an indicator of whether or not your roo is going to throw well coppered hens?

BTW, I believe the french standard says that the hackle MAY have a black stripe, but not that it is desired or otherwise. It is allowed. I would like from our collective input to come to a conclusion as to whether or not it is beneficial for the production of good hackle color in hens. My gut tells me that between two roosters with the same coppering, the one with the hackle stripe is going to throw darker hens.

 

[geebs]

Awe Don... how sweet of you to say... She was in the cull pile due to fused toes and her posture... GACK... The picture was actually better than the product in hand... Her substance was good though... DRAT... it is always something.