Quote:
Debbi, too much connected Brown in the breast, For sure we want the few spots on the BC male. Don
Debbi, too much connected Brown in the breast, For sure we want the few spots on the BC male. Don
Black Copper Marans discussion thread
- Thread starter geebs
- Start date
Quote:
Wheatens are supposed to have a black breast in all breeds. But, I have yet myself, and I admit I haven't seen that many, haven't seen a wheaten marans roo with a solid black breast.
Interesting, when I first looked at Marans, and at the French Web site, the standard for a bc male said "black breast". A few years ago, they changed it to allow for copper flecking. It seems to me, that they are changing it as they develop the birds to suit what they have.
Anyway, what they do in Australia, really doesn't have an impact on what we do here.
They also script their standard to fit the birds they have, which makes sense.
Why would a standard be written that didn't fit the birds that it would govern?
The French have just as many problems as we do here. I think that we are just more vocal about them. Which is a good thing...
Sue
And therein, I think this is why we collectively, and me in particular, are getting confused! If everyone's standards keep changing, how in the world are you supposed to keep up? I was leaning towards the French standard, afterall, this is where the breed originated. Then started to lean my thinking to follow the US standard, which at the time was more like the French's. Afterall, if I were to show, it would be here, not in France. But now it seems like every time I re-read the US standard something else has changed. I always assumed the "standard" type of bird was the goal to aim for, but now it seems like everyone is bending the standard to the majority of the way the breed "looks" here?? If so, I'll want no part of showing, and will lean towards breeding to the "original" breed standard for my own pleasure. This doesn't just happen in this breed, nor in this species, and I realize that, but to change it to the point where the genetic math can't keep up just seems wrong. Just my simple opinion, to each their own.
Wheatens are supposed to have a black breast in all breeds. But, I have yet myself, and I admit I haven't seen that many, haven't seen a wheaten marans roo with a solid black breast.
Interesting, when I first looked at Marans, and at the French Web site, the standard for a bc male said "black breast". A few years ago, they changed it to allow for copper flecking. It seems to me, that they are changing it as they develop the birds to suit what they have.
Anyway, what they do in Australia, really doesn't have an impact on what we do here.
They also script their standard to fit the birds they have, which makes sense.
Why would a standard be written that didn't fit the birds that it would govern?
The French have just as many problems as we do here. I think that we are just more vocal about them. Which is a good thing...
Sue
And therein, I think this is why we collectively, and me in particular, are getting confused! If everyone's standards keep changing, how in the world are you supposed to keep up? I was leaning towards the French standard, afterall, this is where the breed originated. Then started to lean my thinking to follow the US standard, which at the time was more like the French's. Afterall, if I were to show, it would be here, not in France. But now it seems like every time I re-read the US standard something else has changed. I always assumed the "standard" type of bird was the goal to aim for, but now it seems like everyone is bending the standard to the majority of the way the breed "looks" here?? If so, I'll want no part of showing, and will lean towards breeding to the "original" breed standard for my own pleasure. This doesn't just happen in this breed, nor in this species, and I realize that, but to change it to the point where the genetic math can't keep up just seems wrong. Just my simple opinion, to each their own.
Quote:
Debbi, too much connected Brown in the breast, For sure we want the few spots on the BC male. Don
Yes, but no spotting going on here. This is what made me make a possible connection to the no spotting=wheaten gene possibility. As the wheatens are NOT supposed to have spotting, but the BCM IS supposed to, does the lack of spotting in my BCMs show a tendency toward a possible hidden wheaten gene?? Is this clear as mud or what?
Debbi, too much connected Brown in the breast, For sure we want the few spots on the BC male. Don
Yes, but no spotting going on here. This is what made me make a possible connection to the no spotting=wheaten gene possibility. As the wheatens are NOT supposed to have spotting, but the BCM IS supposed to, does the lack of spotting in my BCMs show a tendency toward a possible hidden wheaten gene?? Is this clear as mud or what?
Last edited:
Quote:
Wheatens are supposed to have a black breast in all breeds. But, I have yet myself, and I admit I haven't seen that many, haven't seen a wheaten marans roo with a solid black breast.
Interesting, when I first looked at Marans, and at the French Web site, the standard for a bc male said "black breast". A few years ago, they changed it to allow for copper flecking. It seems to me, that they are changing it as they develop the birds to suit what they have.
Anyway, what they do in Australia, really doesn't have an impact on what we do here.
They also script their standard to fit the birds they have, which makes sense.
Why would a standard be written that didn't fit the birds that it would govern?
The French have just as many problems as we do here. I think that we are just more vocal about them. Which is a good thing...
Sue
Sue, in the past two year I have raised out to maturity several Wheaten Marans and have not had any of them with the spotted breast, My wheaten are Presley bloodlines, but have had a lot of white wing and tail feathers though. Don
Wheatens are supposed to have a black breast in all breeds. But, I have yet myself, and I admit I haven't seen that many, haven't seen a wheaten marans roo with a solid black breast.
Interesting, when I first looked at Marans, and at the French Web site, the standard for a bc male said "black breast". A few years ago, they changed it to allow for copper flecking. It seems to me, that they are changing it as they develop the birds to suit what they have.
Anyway, what they do in Australia, really doesn't have an impact on what we do here.
They also script their standard to fit the birds they have, which makes sense.
Why would a standard be written that didn't fit the birds that it would govern?
The French have just as many problems as we do here. I think that we are just more vocal about them. Which is a good thing...
Sue
Sue, in the past two year I have raised out to maturity several Wheaten Marans and have not had any of them with the spotted breast, My wheaten are Presley bloodlines, but have had a lot of white wing and tail feathers though. Don
Quote:
Debbi, too much connected Brown in the breast, For sure we want the few spots on the BC male. Don
Yes, but no spotting going on here. This is what made me make a possible connection to the no spotting=wheaten gene possibility. As the wheatens are NOT supposed to have spotting, but the BCM IS supposed to, does the lack of spotting in my BCMs show a tendency toward a possible hidden wheaten gene?? Is this clear as mud or what?
Debbi, I would say no correlation at all, as we all know there are lots of unknowns with the Marans though. Don
Debbi, too much connected Brown in the breast, For sure we want the few spots on the BC male. Don
Yes, but no spotting going on here. This is what made me make a possible connection to the no spotting=wheaten gene possibility. As the wheatens are NOT supposed to have spotting, but the BCM IS supposed to, does the lack of spotting in my BCMs show a tendency toward a possible hidden wheaten gene?? Is this clear as mud or what?
Debbi, I would say no correlation at all, as we all know there are lots of unknowns with the Marans though. Don
- Thread starter
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- Sep 28, 2008
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For what it is worth... I have always had flecking in the chest (flames) and no yellow in the hackle... and never had one wheaton chick... Now this last spring I purchased some stock and I knew right away.. the tell tale signs were in the eye and shank as a young rooster... tell me what you think now??? He is overmelanised and has correct eye color.
So now can you tell there is a "dirty gene" there.. I say yep... The shank color is slate.. eye color is correct.. But you will notice something if you look close... Snowbird ya probably already seen it... It is the beak... The beak is not black... When these birds were very young I took a look at the eye color and knew that they carried a dirty gene....Non of my good roosters that never threw sports presented that way... Maybe the melanistics can show up anywhere on the bird. These are identical roosters from the same hatch and I believe they both carry wheaton... I test mated the one to prove my theory.. I am correc.. They do NOT however carry partridge.. It presents differently.. (I am theororizing here)
These roosters have no flaming in the chest. Pure black...
So now can you tell there is a "dirty gene" there.. I say yep... The shank color is slate.. eye color is correct.. But you will notice something if you look close... Snowbird ya probably already seen it... It is the beak... The beak is not black... When these birds were very young I took a look at the eye color and knew that they carried a dirty gene....Non of my good roosters that never threw sports presented that way... Maybe the melanistics can show up anywhere on the bird. These are identical roosters from the same hatch and I believe they both carry wheaton... I test mated the one to prove my theory.. I am correc.. They do NOT however carry partridge.. It presents differently.. (I am theororizing here)
These roosters have no flaming in the chest. Pure black...
Quote:
Jan, I think you are right in test mating the Marans and then we have an idea of what is dirty and what is not. I am mating up my Bc at present and will do all single matigs and will also swith the matings after a certain amount of eggs. I intend to run a test on all the BC marans I have still here and intend to do the pictures of egg through adult or cull whichever comes first. Don
Jan, I think you are right in test mating the Marans and then we have an idea of what is dirty and what is not. I am mating up my Bc at present and will do all single matigs and will also swith the matings after a certain amount of eggs. I intend to run a test on all the BC marans I have still here and intend to do the pictures of egg through adult or cull whichever comes first. Don
Interesting Jan! I have one dark boy that has a dark horn beak, his brother has a more mottled colored horn colored beak. Pip, with the most (obvious to me) chance of wheaten genes has a horn color with a white tipped beak. None of my birds have a "black" beak, are you referring black to dark horn?
Let me add this:
The first boy has correct eye color, slate shanks, no flecking on breast, and a dark horn beak
His brother has, correct eye color, slate shanks, no flecking, and a mottled horn beak
Pip (OMG) has correct eye color, light slate shanks, two faint spots of flecking high up in the throat area, and a horn colored beak with a white tip
Let me add this:
The first boy has correct eye color, slate shanks, no flecking on breast, and a dark horn beak
His brother has, correct eye color, slate shanks, no flecking, and a mottled horn beak
Pip (OMG) has correct eye color, light slate shanks, two faint spots of flecking high up in the throat area, and a horn colored beak with a white tip
Last edited:
Quote:
Wheatens are supposed to have a black breast in all breeds. But, I have yet myself, and I admit I haven't seen that many, haven't seen a wheaten marans roo with a solid black breast.
Interesting, when I first looked at Marans, and at the French Web site, the standard for a bc male said "black breast". A few years ago, they changed it to allow for copper flecking. It seems to me, that they are changing it as they develop the birds to suit what they have.
Anyway, what they do in Australia, really doesn't have an impact on what we do here.
They also script their standard to fit the birds they have, which makes sense.
Why would a standard be written that didn't fit the birds that it would govern?
The French have just as many problems as we do here. I think that we are just more vocal about them. Which is a good thing...
Sue
And therein, I think this is why we collectively, and me in particular, are getting confused! If everyone's standards keep changing, how in the world are you supposed to keep up? I was leaning towards the French standard, afterall, this is where the breed originated. Then started to lean my thinking to follow the US standard, which at the time was more like the French's. Afterall, if I were to show, it would be here, not in France. But now it seems like every time I re-read the US standard something else has changed. I always assumed the "standard" type of bird was the goal to aim for, but now it seems like everyone is bending the standard to the majority of the way the breed "looks" here?? If so, I'll want no part of showing, and will lean towards breeding to the "original" breed standard for my own pleasure. This doesn't just happen in this breed, nor in this species, and I realize that, but to change it to the point where the genetic math can't keep up just seems wrong. Just my simple opinion, to each their own.
Debbi,
I agree with you, this gets more twisted all the time!
I was aiming towards the French standard, then it suddenly is not the benchmark. Now it's the US standard, and that is getting changed constantly. Were it will land , I do not know. But confusing...yes indeed! I want to breed towards the best goal I can.
Geebs- Again thanks for the thread, I learned much, but then it took a turn, you seemed to notice it a few pages back, as you mentioned that lurkers and newbies were probably getting scared of again...Yup, I was ready to ask some questions, but then the infighting got humming along, and I "chickened out". I'll just go back and lurk and watch and try to see where you all land.
No matter where it is, in my book the Black Copper Marans are a special breed that deserve our respect and best efforts!
Wheatens are supposed to have a black breast in all breeds. But, I have yet myself, and I admit I haven't seen that many, haven't seen a wheaten marans roo with a solid black breast.
Interesting, when I first looked at Marans, and at the French Web site, the standard for a bc male said "black breast". A few years ago, they changed it to allow for copper flecking. It seems to me, that they are changing it as they develop the birds to suit what they have.
Anyway, what they do in Australia, really doesn't have an impact on what we do here.
They also script their standard to fit the birds they have, which makes sense.
Why would a standard be written that didn't fit the birds that it would govern?
The French have just as many problems as we do here. I think that we are just more vocal about them. Which is a good thing...
Sue
And therein, I think this is why we collectively, and me in particular, are getting confused! If everyone's standards keep changing, how in the world are you supposed to keep up? I was leaning towards the French standard, afterall, this is where the breed originated. Then started to lean my thinking to follow the US standard, which at the time was more like the French's. Afterall, if I were to show, it would be here, not in France. But now it seems like every time I re-read the US standard something else has changed. I always assumed the "standard" type of bird was the goal to aim for, but now it seems like everyone is bending the standard to the majority of the way the breed "looks" here?? If so, I'll want no part of showing, and will lean towards breeding to the "original" breed standard for my own pleasure. This doesn't just happen in this breed, nor in this species, and I realize that, but to change it to the point where the genetic math can't keep up just seems wrong. Just my simple opinion, to each their own.
Debbi,
I agree with you, this gets more twisted all the time!
I was aiming towards the French standard, then it suddenly is not the benchmark. Now it's the US standard, and that is getting changed constantly. Were it will land , I do not know. But confusing...yes indeed! I want to breed towards the best goal I can.
Geebs- Again thanks for the thread, I learned much, but then it took a turn, you seemed to notice it a few pages back, as you mentioned that lurkers and newbies were probably getting scared of again...Yup, I was ready to ask some questions, but then the infighting got humming along, and I "chickened out". I'll just go back and lurk and watch and try to see where you all land.
No matter where it is, in my book the Black Copper Marans are a special breed that deserve our respect and best efforts!
Quote:
And therein, I think this is why we collectively, and me in particular, are getting confused! If everyone's standards keep changing, how in the world are you supposed to keep up? I was leaning towards the French standard, afterall, this is where the breed originated. Then started to lean my thinking to follow the US standard, which at the time was more like the French's. Afterall, if I were to show, it would be here, not in France. But now it seems like every time I re-read the US standard something else has changed. I always assumed the "standard" type of bird was the goal to aim for, but now it seems like everyone is bending the standard to the majority of the way the breed "looks" here?? If so, I'll want no part of showing, and will lean towards breeding to the "original" breed standard for my own pleasure. This doesn't just happen in this breed, nor in this species, and I realize that, but to change it to the point where the genetic math can't keep up just seems wrong. Just my simple opinion, to each their own.
Debbi,
I agree with you, this gets more twisted all the time!
I was aiming towards the French standard, then it suddenly is not the benchmark. Now it's the US standard, and that is getting changed constantly. Were it will land , I do not know. But confusing...yes indeed! I want to breed towards the best goal I can.
Geebs- Again thanks for the thread, I learned much, but then it took a turn, you seemed to notice it a few pages back, as you mentioned that lurkers and newbies were probably getting scared of again...Yup, I was ready to ask some questions, but then the infighting got humming along, and I "chickened out". I'll just go back and lurk and watch and try to see where you all land.
No matter where it is, in my book the Black Copper Marans are a special breed that deserve our respect and best efforts!
And therein, I think this is why we collectively, and me in particular, are getting confused! If everyone's standards keep changing, how in the world are you supposed to keep up? I was leaning towards the French standard, afterall, this is where the breed originated. Then started to lean my thinking to follow the US standard, which at the time was more like the French's. Afterall, if I were to show, it would be here, not in France. But now it seems like every time I re-read the US standard something else has changed. I always assumed the "standard" type of bird was the goal to aim for, but now it seems like everyone is bending the standard to the majority of the way the breed "looks" here?? If so, I'll want no part of showing, and will lean towards breeding to the "original" breed standard for my own pleasure. This doesn't just happen in this breed, nor in this species, and I realize that, but to change it to the point where the genetic math can't keep up just seems wrong. Just my simple opinion, to each their own.
Debbi,
I agree with you, this gets more twisted all the time!
I was aiming towards the French standard, then it suddenly is not the benchmark. Now it's the US standard, and that is getting changed constantly. Were it will land , I do not know. But confusing...yes indeed! I want to breed towards the best goal I can.
Geebs- Again thanks for the thread, I learned much, but then it took a turn, you seemed to notice it a few pages back, as you mentioned that lurkers and newbies were probably getting scared of again...Yup, I was ready to ask some questions, but then the infighting got humming along, and I "chickened out". I'll just go back and lurk and watch and try to see where you all land.
No matter where it is, in my book the Black Copper Marans are a special breed that deserve our respect and best efforts!
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